“We should have found her”. Those are the words of Fairfax County Interim Fire and Rescue Chief David Rohr about the death of Debra Chiles.
STATter 911 has learned that the 49 year old Chiles was on the phone with 911 for two minutes after firefighters arrived at her burning Lorton home last Wednesday morning. Chief Rohr said today, “I think we had opportunities to find her”.
Chief Rohr confirmed there was no fire on the third floor of the townhouse where Debra Chiles had taken refuge in a bathroom. The fire was confined to the first floor.
Fire officials confirmed today the accuracy of a timeline STATter 911 put together. The timeline comes from sources familiar with the sequence of events, beginning with Debra Chiles first call to 911 just before 1:00 a.m.
Chief Rohr said Debra Chiles was still on the phone with 911 when the first firefighters arrived. The crews from Rescue 419 and Engine 419 arrived right after each other at around 1:07 a.m.
According to Chief Rohr, 911 workers properly relayed that there was a woman trapped in the third floor bathroom. Rohr said crews went immediately to the third floor. Despite the use of thermal imaging cameras, Chief Rohr said the firefighters didn’t find the woman during their first search.
A second search began after 1:35 a.m. According to Chief Rohr it was sometime during that second search that the woman’s body was found. He said at that point it was too late to attempt to revive Debra Chiles.
At the request of STATter 911, former Alexandria Fire Marshal Michael A. Conner looked at the aftermath of the fire and the floor plan of similar townhomes. Conner, now a senior investigative analyst for Doptis and Buchanan, called this a relatively small fire. Conner said he is puzzled how firefighters, armed with her specific location, in full protective gear, and a thermal imaging camera, would be unable to find Debra Chiles.
Chief Rohr also said he does not know why firefighters could not find the woman in time to save her. Rohr is hoping a “post-incident analysis” of the events will provide some answers.
See our 6:00 p.m. story here.
TIMELINE OF EVENTS
Fairfax County Fire officials confirmed for STATter 911 the following timeline of the major events from the fire at 9207 Cardinal Forest Lane. We originally obtained the information from sources familiar with the incident:
12:59:58 HOUSE IS FULL OF SMOKE. 2 PEOPLE ON 3RD FLOOR. 2 PEOPLE ON 2ND FLOOR. ALSO DOGS IN HOUSE. UNABLE TO GET OUT DUE TO SMOKE.
1:00:40 FIRE DEPARTMENT DISPATCHED.
1:02:53 ON CALLBACK CALLER STATES SHE’S IN THE BATHROOM. ATTEMPTING TO BLOCK DOOR WITH TOWELS.
1:03:08 CALLER AT 9205 SAYS THERE IS SOMEONE STILL IN THE HOUSE THAT’S ON FIRE. SHE IS GETTING OUT OF HER HOUSE NOW.
1:06:50 RESCUE 419 IS ON THE SCENE.
1:06:51 VICTIM ON 3RD FLOOR.
1:07:42 CALLER ON 3RD FLOOR OF 9207 CARDINAL FOREST.
1:07:51 ENGINE 419 IS ON THE SCENE. REPORTS 3 STORY TOWNHOUSE. SMOKE SHOWING.
1:08:09 FEMALE CALLER IS TRAPPED.
1:08:45 CALLER IS LAYING (ON) FLOOR.
1:08:58 LOST CONTACT WITH CALLER.
1:09:29 WILL TRY TO CALL BACK.
1:11:04 VOICE MAIL ON CALL BACK. CALLER APPEARED TO BE LOSING CONSCIOUSNESS WHEN CONTACT WAS LOST.
1:12:09 HEAVY SMOKE FROM 2ND FLOOR. FIRE FROM MAIN FLOOR.
1:12:33 BATTALION CHIEF 405 ON THE SCENE.
1:14:30 BATTALION CHIEF 405 REQUESTS 2ND ALARM.
1:35:44 ENGINE 422 REPORTS FIRE KNOCKED DOWN. HAVE NOT LOCATED 3RD VICTIM. STARTING SECONDARY SEARCH.
1:45:37 TOWNHOUSE IN REAR CHECKED. ALL IS FINE. RESIDENTS ACCOUNTED FOR.
1:58:16 COMMAND REQUESTS THE LAB, CRIME SCENE AND HOMICIDE.
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Sad, but not surprising.
I wonder if this blog would still be so silent if the exact incident with the exact results had happened in Stafford with volunteers? Somehow I don't think so.
This just shows that everyone makes mistakes, it makes no difference whether you're getting paid or not. Everyone needs to learn from each others errors so that they are not repeated in the future.
Mr. Stater: The other question beside why the FD didn't find the victim in time, is why they didn't even try and work on her when they finally did?
1.) Very very limited live fire training in the
academy for recruits and in the field for operational
personnel.
2.) Recruits that do not pass recruit school are often
recycled to another school instead of being
terminated.
3.) Medics are given extra points on suppression
promotional tests which leads a fair number of
suppression officers with limited fireground
experience.
4.) There is virtually zero accountability in the
field for not doing your job! (If you refuse to go in
on a fire nothing will be done to you.)
Fairfax is not the only career department doing those things. Other places are the doing the same of stuff or worse. If the public only knew what was really going on behind closed bay doors.
Fairfax is the only the first ones to get caught short as a result of whats going on in many of our departments. The rest of us have only been lucky so far.
just look at baltimore city fire department
This is a real tragedy for this family. This goes to show that just because you throw alot of money at a department does not mean you get quality personell by no means. There is no excuse for not finding a victim that you know is inside in a timely fashion, This is exactly what we all train for but I guess wearing vests is more important then protecting the citizens. Which ever crews didnt find her FIRE THEM!!!
It is tragic that someone lost thier life as the result of a fire. By reviewing the blogs here it is evident none of the 'anonymous' authors have ever fought a structure fire. Well, I have and I can say that trying to make your way through a home filled with smoke, while attempting to navigate a floor plan that you are unfamiliar with and contend with the enormous collection of personal items one may accumulate is exceeding difficult. Until you have been there yourself, judge not as it's not your job to judge. People die in fires, it's a sad fact but blaming the fire fighters for her death is not reasonable. Fire fighters train to save lives however, thier personal safety comes first and while it's not something you will hear often, it is the absolute truth.
I agree with texas FF, as Im a FF myself. Its is always sad when someone dies in a structure fire wheater it be a person who lives at the structure or a FF. From the ouside looking in its easy to say well they the FF's should have done this or should have done that but no one but the FF's inside and God know whats really happening inside. My prayers and thoughts go out to the victims family and the FF's that were on scene. It really bothers me when all these people are makeing negitves comments about Fire departments when the closest they have came to a fire was rubber necking while driveing by, Im a firm believer that if you think you can do this job then come on down and apply.
Unfortunately the fire service today is spending too much time trying to justify their existence by extensive diversification of services provided at the cost of real fire training.
I hear statements like "we don't have fires anymore" or "the number of fires are down" or "most of what we do is EMS". There are plenty of services and agencies available to provide EMS, install car seats, etc. but only one agency can provide fire protection and that is the fire service.
We need to stay on top of our game and not get too far from our mission and original purpose for existing. I do not blame the firefighters for not finding the trapped victim I blame the fire service for allowing itself to get too far away from it's original mission of protecting life and property from fire. Dinosaur? I don't think so. Why haven't fire deaths decreased? Why haven't firefighter fatalities decreased? Why do we continue to make the same mistakes over and over across the country? That's right. You guessed it. Good training and experienced fire officers. As the saying goes "train as if your life (and other's) depends on it because it does.
Stay focused on your job and train. People are counting on you to be able to perform when the bell sounds. God bless.
IT IS NOT ANYONES DUTY TO PLACE BLAME EXCEPT FOR THE GUYS THAT WERE ON THAT JOB. THINGS WILL NOT ALWAYS GO AS PLANNED ON THE FIREGROUND. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE RIT TEAMS.
First off to Statter and the rest of the Monday morning qaurterbacks how many of you have truly been in a fire, anyone can type! thats what I thought! Second yes mistakes were made and with that follows corrections. If you could please show me a fire department without mistakes you have truly created something. Stater hopefully you read your comments, don't be bitter because you couldn't hack it as a firefighter. Way to be one sided, you are a discrace to the brotherhood.
There seems to be complacency in their voices from the get go. Even after 26 years of firefighting I still get a controlled excitement when I know someone is entrapped and we never give up searching until we find them, espcially when we know for a fact there was someone entrapped inside. Very disappointing. We all make mistakes, however, there is no excuse for complacency in this job.
Hey Debbie- It's called upper body strength!!! Please stop your BS, The next thing you'll want is a GPS system. I have worked with legends that have put (themselves)at extreme personal risk time and time again to pull people ( FF's and civillians) out of burning buildings. Its called risk vs reward, and while I won't Monday morning QB this event, the rewards ( saving a known life ) far outweigh keeping your own ass safe.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way…
Lt Serge Burak, Ret FDNY 1985-2005
First things first, I don't believe everyone on here is a firefighter. So I'm going to say that I am. I have over 20 years in the service as a volunteer and paid FF. I am not going to comment on what might, should, or could have happened, because I wasn't there. But I know this… if you are not a FF then you can have your opinion, but please keep it to yourself so you can stay warm at night. What happened in this case has nothing to do with hiring practices or lack of training or diversification of services. It has to do with making a mistake. I find it hard to believe that when they responded to the call and learned that a human life was trapped in the building they decided to leave her to die because somebody didn't want to go in. They respond so many units anyway there had to be at least two FF's that wanted to go and save her. I will say that after listening to the audio it does sound like a few of them didn't care. Again I wasn't there and I don't know these guys so I'm only speculating.
This is a tragedy and we need to know what happened without shooting ourselves in the foot. In the end we should learn from this and leave the "opinions" to the "wanna bees".
" A couple sounded like they did not care on the audio".
"They respond with so many units that there had to have been two FFs that wanted to save her."
"Anonymous" I do not know where you spent 20 years in the fire service but I spent 27 in a major urban department(Atlanta). I cannot imagine fellow firefighters I worked with in those 27 years "not caring" on a known rescue or any rescue, much less having to say that there had to have been at least two FFs that cared out of all the units responding.
Some "stuff" will happen on the emergency scene, but most are predictable and therefore preventable. On the other hand back to back fires, heavy call volume, fatigue, etc., etc. are all factors that can also effect judgment and performance as we are only human and have limitations.
Then you say training has nothing to do with the mistakes made on the fire ground. Granted "stuff" happens but training is an essential factor toward eliminating critical "stuff" happening or not happening on the fire ground.
I still contend that the fire service has spread themselves "thin" thereby negatively impacting its focus and training time in many major fire departments. I know from first hand experience so I am not just saying this as an outsider or as some "wanna be" as you might say. I speak from 27 years of service in a major metro fire department as a well-experienced firefighter, driver, line officer, battalion chief, chief of training and deputy chief.
I have no doubt that these firefighters re-live this incident over and over in their minds and would never have wanted the outcome to be what it turned out to be. I made mistakes on the fire ground and know what the "re-live" is like. I learned from every fire I responded to and attempted to become better with each one.
Public scrutiny can be brutal on top of such a tragic event. What I was attempting to say before was that I do not blame or judge them for what happened, but rather am concerned that the fire service and its leadership (including myself), have lost focus on its primary mission and is distracted by demands from outside. It is not about blame or excuses it is about examining what happened and why, learning from it and hopefully not repeating the same mistake.
Be safe and look out for one another. 4 sets of eyes are better than one in a fire company. The FF with you may see something you don't and vice versa.
I would just like to ask a question? With the fire on the first floor, and smoke accumulation on the second and third floors, wouldn't ventilation on the second and third floors be in order, like taking out the third floor windows, then the second floor windows, then setting up a ppv fan at a first floor doorway? What say you all? My prsumption here, until someone says differently, is that the ventilation I asked about wasn't done. Yes, I am a fire fighter, and I'm merely trying to better my own knowledge of fire fighting.
This is yet another example a sad event. I am a firefighter of about 6 years and now currently fighting the war on terroism. I serve this country with pride and dignity and it breaks my heart to hear people talking down to the people who are back home keeping families, pets, houses and all other things we as Americans take for granted. Ill be the first to say that when those tones drop, you race to the truck and show on scene that all that bs about not caring goes out the window. Your first priority as a public servant is to the people who need you. I dont care what anybody says, until your faced with the choice of putting your life on the line for people you dont know, dont judge others who do it everyday so that you can sleep at night.
FYI, I have copied many of the comments here to the comments section under the 911 audio from this incident. A similar discussion is going on there. That link is:
http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/2007/07/statter-911-has-fireground-audio-from.html
Dave Statter
Fire fighters today are in the job for the money and glory. No glory here. Still get the money though.Forty years on the job, Ive never seen anything like the additude of the younger generation.
Fairfax Fire & Rescue Department's motto is the following – "Diversity over Safety"
It should not matter what ethnicity or color you are except that you can the job and have an opportunity of being a competent FF.
Reply to John McNeil…
I was responding to a few of the individuals on here who seemed to find blame in everything they could think of. Including your comments on diversification of services. If we don't provide those services, then who is? In your positions with AFD you should know that the fire service is an ever-changing thing. We never stop learning. We just have to adapt to the world today and thats the way it is. As far as this particular incident (which is what this forum is all about) I don't feel that what happened can be blamed on "diversification of services".
I know that training is very crucial on the fireground. Its the foundation that has to be laid down before we send rookies out to the wolves. It also has to be continued throughout our careers to boost teamwork, and confidence and to battle complacency. The other issue you had with my comments was about who cares. I was trying to say the exact same thing you said in a different way. Maybe I was trying to sound a little too sarcastic instead of saying what I meant. I know that every man on that scene cared about that lady. I also know without actually being acquainted with those guys that they probably feel more guilt than any of us can fathom.
I appreciated your comments Chief McNeil you probably made alot more sense than anyone on here, myself included. I was attempting to make those "Monday morning Quarterbacks" (as they are called) think about what they were saying. You and I know that it never does any good trying to find blame when this sort of thing happens. Its better to learn from it and go on and make sure this doesn't happen again.
Kevin Adams
this is in reply to pops comment, i dont get paid a single dime for what i do as a fire fighter and i still do it. when ever the tones drop i head to the station to go help someone like you that i dont even know and very rarely do we even get a thanks, so no glory there either. i do it because i love to help people and nine out of ten fire fighters that you ask will say the same. its not about money or glory, its about pride you get out of doing something that you love.
Apparently very few people on the scene cared about the woman or they would have found her. They would have been talking on the radio about the trapped person in the bathroom and that she needs to be found! No excuses, find her!
It not that they took a beating and were driven out. They glanced around thought "Huh, all clear" and forgot about the woman. That is not caring, don't fool yourselves into thinking that.
I bet the only reason most of the people there feel bad is that they are scared they are going to get into trouble of some kind.
This is not the first time this has happened there, and nothing changed. Caring people and organizations, reflect upon their mistakes, learn from them, and make changes to ensure they don't happen again. Caring people, don't sweep it under the rug, make excuses, and allow it to keep happening.
As I read down the line at all of these comments which everyone is entitled to, it just seems to me as if we went from brothers and sisters who share a same passion to people who are trying to strike down a fire department who had made a mistake just like every single fire department in the world, again every single fire department in the world. Everyone talks about how the fire department has changed it seems to me like all these " anonymous" firefighters are helping the negative change. If I may, get off your horses learn from someones misfortune and learn a thing or two about brotherhood.
A relatively small fire, according to many sources. If you've seen the pictures, you've noticed the boarded up windows, but other than a little bit of smoke staining above the window header, was there a significant heat or smoke pattern to indicate an intense fire? This was a vinyl siding townhouse, the vinyl hadn't even melted! Typical of Fairfax Fire & Rescue doing 2 things… Immediately calling a second alarm on all working fires, and Handing out fancy vests and pretty command titles. The dispatchers had her on the phone, she couldn't have stated any more clearly where she was. Her boyfriend was even found and stated she was inside. Stevie Wonder could've found her, so why couldnt one the highest paid, state of the art and modern professional fire services have done the same? Also, play back the audio and listen to how many dozen times the radios fade out and the transmission is "broken up". A revamp of their communications system is LONG overdue. I work in Northern Virginia with a neighboring department, frequently running mutual aid into Fairfax County, so I am quite familiar with how they operate and have several friends who work for that department. However to protect my interests in this day and age I must remain anonymous. What a shame and an embarrassment. Someone needs to be held accountable. I used to reside in Fairfax County, now I'm glad I moved to Maryland!
Ok, lets start off with the comment about diversity I am sure there were black and white persons looking for the victim so to make any comment that race made a factor in locating the victim is ignorant, and that shows why minorities need organizations so stop being ignorant. Now the fire chief had no right making a comment when the investigation was still on going.From what I hear it was a 30 minute interview where the media edited what they wanted, but I will get to you in a minute Dave Statteder. The time line from what I hear is inaccurate, because Fairfax uses MCTs so when the offier hit the button he was still down the street. The fire apparatus was still pulling up to the scene, then they needed to get there equipment and mask up. If anyone is familiar with rescues and engine companies they don't have ladders to reach the third floor.
Someone commmented on ppv, lesson for you fire must be controlled before ppv because the fire will blow up the stair to the victim. I was informed that the fire was blocking the steps. So you have to knock down the fire first. And for all of you rocket scientist out there lets not forget this is lightweight construction enter on the second floor before you get a knock on the fire, you may not be seeing your family tommorrow. I was also told that all the windows were closed with black smoke coming from them and the thermal imagers weren't working due to the amount of heat.. hint hint flashover conditions. So I will like to see any of you enter a structure and locate a victim on the third floor and get them out in under 2 minutes, because thats what we are really looking at, the point of death. Lets not forget the conditions you need to expose the victim to, more heat and smoke. I am sure her lungs would of been burnt from the heat. And for you Dave Statter why don't you release the entire 30 minute interview with the Fire Chief and not one your editing department got there hands on.. Last but not least we wouldn't be taking about this if those units had gotten there two minutes later and she had already passed which happens every day in this county. Oh yea why did the fire and smoke get such a head start were there smoke detectors?? Things that make you say hummm….
Smoke killed her not the fire and from looking at the situation the the windows were closed containing the smoke and the heat..aka the oven..
In answer to Virginia Firefighter's questions and comments:
The interview with Interim Chief David Rohr was (and I am guessing) about 7 minutes on tape. I don't know who gave you the half-hour figure.
I had a nice chat with the chief and Captain Chris Schaff for a few minutes before and a few minutes afterward.
If I can find the raw tape (my desk is a mess) I will try and post it, so you can be clear about what he said.
My impression was Chief Rohr, while not having an explanation as to why Debra Chiles was not discovered until it was too late, was not making any excuses.
Even when I brought up the fact that I had learned from some people that Ms. Chiles had a lot of things stacked in the living areas of her home, Chief Rohr made the comment, and I am paraphrasing, that despite that, we should have found her.
Chief Rohr agreed with former Alexandria Fire Marshal Mike Connor, who looked at the scene with us, that this wasn't a big fire. That the fire had reached the bottom of the stairwell, adjacent to the kitchen and was starting to go up the stairwell when it was knocked.
While Chief Rohr and I talked about some other recent fires involving lightweight construction where the fire was much more advanced (the Franconia fire with the mayday, was one of them), there was no indication that was the case here.
Chief Rohr and I did also discuss the layout of that townhouse where the only way out is the front door or windows in the front. He also talked about the need for sprinklers in a place like this.
Hope this helps.
Statter
Virginia Firefighter,
Ever heard of VES? How about throw a 24 ft. ladder to the second floor and use the interior stairs to the third floor.
Speaking of ventilation………. that takes care of the flashover issue.
And with an aggressive interior attack on the fire….. (remember we have a known victim).
Lightweight construction with intact drywall (since it was not an unfinished basement on fire) is a calculated risk to save a known rescue. Remember risk assessment; risk a lot to save a lot.
If you do not think you will ever have to risk your life as a firefighter (or are unwilling to), maybe you should seek alternative employment. Firefighting is dangerous, and then there is that firefighter’s oath to protect life and property.
Thermal imager! How did firefighters ever make rescues without them?
Two minutes, she was only unconscious at that point not dead! There is still a window of opportunity to possibly save her. Besides, it looks a little better to pull a victim out on a primary search and not be able to resuscitate them than find them during overhaul!
Hello all,
I was told about this site from a firefighter I met in the store. I live on Duck Hawk wy,which our townhouses back the one that burned.
We thank the firefighters for all of their efforts the outcome could of been much worse if they didn't stop the fire as I see in the news everyday, rows of townhomes burned down.
People were still sleeping in other homes which were attached.
My home was assessed last year at just over 300,000. So the fire and smoke did destroy much of the interior of the home. After serving a tour in Iraq you learn that the safety of you and your troops come first. Our community has moved on and we wish you all do the same. The firefighters didn't cause the fire,and I witnessed their efforts.
Dave Statter is also just doing his job with the info he is given. But I think its time to end this and move on Dave.
Thank you all for what you do.
Isnt the world full of Monday morning quarterbacks. I know some of these guys and have worked with them in the past. I can assure you there were plenty of decent guys there willing to bust their butts to find this woman. The job is not 9-5 and not controled by any means, but that being said it seemed like a room and contents that went sour. Mistakes are made and everyone should learn from them once the real FACTS are revealed.If you want to blame something blame the loss of years of experience that has been lost in that department. The old guys have moved on and the new breed doesnt seem to look at life in the same way as us old farts.
As to the Chief and his comments, maybe his timing was bad maybe what he said was twisted by the media. Say what you want Rohr is a stand up guy and always has been, A spade is a spade.
Good thing the deer that fire station 12 saved didn't live in Lorton.