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Photo by Bradley Keith, PGFD Safety Officer
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It appears Ambulance 845 had a six-minute jump on a fatal house fire Tuesday but pulled up at the burning home after the fire engine from the same Prince George’s County fire station. STATter911.com has learned a review is under way trying to determine more about the conversation with dispatchers and the actions of the firefighters aboard the ambulance from the Croom fire station. PGFD Chief Spokesman Mark Brady said even without the lost minutes, the amount of fire would have made a rescue by the firefighters aboard the ambulance unlikely.
It is a confusing scenario with much of the delay caused by the 74-year-old woman trapped in the burning home unable to tell 911 her house was on fire.
A call taker at the Prince George’s County Public Communications Center knew there was someone in distress when the call came in at 8:14 PM, but county officials who have listened to recordings report there was no indication the house was burning. The 911 call automatically showed an address of 10,190 Old Indian Head Road.
Prince George’s County Fire/EMS Department Chief Spokesman Mark Brady calls it a “tragic set of circumstances” resulting in minutes lost in sending fire equipment to the home.
Still, help was sent immediately. According to Brady and the other county officials, the call was classified as an unknown type of emergency. The closest BLS unit (Ambulance 845), an ALS unit and police were sent within two minutes of the initial 911 call.
The 911 center didn’t start getting calls there was a fire in the same block until 8:18 PM, with Engine 845 from Croom dispatched two-minutes later. About the same time, 911 callers also reported a house on fire at 10,200 Old Indian Head Road and that the homeowner was likely trapped.
Despite the six-minute head start, county officials confirm Ambulance 845, carrying two career firefighters, didn’t get to the burning home until after the fire engine from the same station. Brady tells STATter911.com a review is underway trying to determine how this occurred.
What is known is that dispatch information released by county officials indicates the ambulance crew spotted the house fire and reported it as they approached the scene. What remains to be answered is what information, if any, about the reported fire and the person trapped had already been relayed to the crew by dispatchers.
There is indication the ambulance crew, following procedures for the initial unknown type 911 call, waited around the corner for police to arrive and determine the scene was safe to enter.
The ambulance crew members did carry their fire gear on the ambulance. Brady points out if the ambulance had arrived first, the crew would have been without water to combat the heavy fire conditions already present.
The large amount of fire forced the first suppression units on the scene to abandon initial efforts to find the woman and mount an exterior attack on the fire.
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I read the reported press release here on STATter911. Before anyone throws out criticism and blame, Please keep mindful of the fact be known the crew on A845 did exactly the correct thing in staging. Had the ambulance continued without knowledge there was a Fire they might have run upon an issue of some type violence c all etc. By allowing the Police to get on the scene and secure. If a Fire and EMS
unit is sent on an unknown emergency, it is/or should be a routine response. Once the scene has been declared safe by Law Enforcement then the Fire and EMS unit (s) can proceed emergency. Even if the ambulance had been aware there was a Fire as the press release states they had no Protective Gear/SCBA to attempt a Rescue. The bulk of that Fire from photos and news reports was so intense even the fullStructure assignment had been on the scene it would have been a serious situation. I would ask/implore to those who criticize and critique with an immediate negative knee jerk reaction, wait and allow the PGFD Investigation to work through all the facts and they can/will determine if anything was done incorrect. Most important issue here is, and it cannot be over emphasized, FIREFIGHTER SAFETY/EVERYONE GOES HOME.
With all the bs this county gets. I agree the ambulance crew did the right thing. My heart goes out to the lady and her family.
I buy the staging argument. Unknown emergency, protocol says you stage until declared safe by police. Fair enough.
But I call bull on the no PPE/SCBA. The PGFD county ambo at my station has two SCBA (in mounted brackets), a set of irons (among other tools), and two fire extinguishers. That's plenty for a primary search. And if the firefighters don't carry their own PPE when they go out on ambo calls, then they are incompetent. How many times do ambos clear calls just in time to make up staffing on boxes?
I'm not saying they did anything wrong by staging, but to say they didn't have the equipment is a fat load.
"How many times do ambos clear calls just in time to make up staffing on boxes?"
Here is a novel idea! How about we just staff the fire trucks in the first place. PGFD is a joke.
save all the safety bs…two F/F's on the unit can see the smoke and they don't do a drive by to assess the scene. .??? Even Billy G will say WTF. I guess they won't be at the award lunch tomorrow
Brady says no SCBA? He can't even spell SCBA. All PGFD ambulances (white with red stripe) and most VFD units carry at least 2 SCBA and forcible entry tools. All ambulance personnel are required to carry PPE wether fire or EMS only, gear is to be on that unit.
Remember this is Brady yappin not Peringer
As someone with first hand information on this fire, I can say the ambulance crew did exactly as they were directed to on this call. After advising PSC of an obvious structure fire, their request to investigate the fire was denied by the EMS channel dispatcher, even as the engine from 845 was responding with 2 men. Once again, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing at Communications.
Perhaps Brady needs to ride and/or look at the apparatus before he makes statements. Last time I looked, all ambulances had 2 SCBA on each unit. It may not have made a difference, but if you are the PIO making "official statements" at least get your info correct.
If you were not on the scene then you cannot comment. I was not on the scene so I will not comment.
Let me clarify a few things and try to put some of this in perspective.
I am reasonably certain Mark Brady did not specifically say SCBA. I will check the tape tomorrow. It may have been something I assumed he meant by Mark's comments about the crew not having all of their equipment. Sloppy on my part and I will correct the story.
One of the versions I heard from a number of people familiar with this incident is the same that was mentioned by one of those commenting: That a dispatcher ordered or instructed the crew from A845 not to respond to the house fire they were reporting and to stand by for word from the police about the unknown trouble call.
Jim Keary and John Erzen out of County Executive Jack Johnson's office insist the recordings from PSCC were listened to and they tell me a transmission like that never happened. We have requested a copy of the radio traffic.
The original unknown trouble call showed up as 10,190 Old Indian Head Road, another address on the large compound of Marlboro Mowers. When the subsequent calls came in they reported the correct address of the house, 10,200.
The best information I have at the moment from county officials is that these were treated like two different calls and for some reason no one figured the unknown trouble call and the fire call were one in the same.
That said, here are the questions I still think are reasonable to ask (and I have) about this incident:
1. Is it unreasonable to expect that someone should have realized sooner than they did these were very likely the same call?
2. If they weren't directed to ignore the house fire by communications, without a specific threat of violence mentioned, shouldn't the ambulance crew have at least driven up to the fire that was only a short distance in front of them to see if their assistance was needed?
3. If communications and/or the ambulance crew really thought these were two different calls, and, so far, the crew is not treating a patient, but there is another life threatening emergency in front of the crew, which should the crew deal with? You are balancing an unknown call with no patient versus a reported house fire with people trapped. Which one is the priority? (Also note an ALS unit was either there or well on its way to the original unknown trouble call).
4. If the reason the ambulance was staging was duw to a potential threat that needed to be checked by police, why was the fire engine allowed to proceed to the same property or even the same block?
5. Once a fire was reported in the same block as the unknown trouble call, quickly followed by a report of someone trapped in that fire, was that information relayed to A845 and the responding medic unit? I would hope that was done if for no other reason than to keep the crews from running into each other. By the timeline given by Keary and Erzen that information was available from 911 callers before A845 reported the evidence of a fire.
6. Even if they couldn't have reasonably made an entry into the home prior to the first engine arriving, weren't there things the crew from A845 have done to help the first due engine? Things like a doing a 360, determining access points that may provide the best way to get to the victim (we are told there was some info from a relative who had talked to the victim and had an idea where she was in the house), making sure no neighbors tried to enter the home and making up staffing on the first engine.
Maybe these are all stupid questions, from a know-nothing reporter. But they are the ones I have come up with based on the information I have been provided and my limited experience.
There may be some reasonable answers that explains the whole situation. So far that information has not been provided.
Statter
i have a question. why was a845 behind eng 845 , six mins. and why didnt engine stage if this was a call with police . if that is what the amb. had to do.
Dave,
I had a similar set of questions, and thought to myself, Statter will be able to answer these soon.
Why does it take 2 minutes to dispatch? I've spent too many hours in dispatch centers to accept such slow work. Even in the busiest days pre-CAD with running cards, units were disptached in 1 minute or less.
I have read all the responses and everyone seems to be upfront about SCBA carried on EMS units. Ok that's a given. I would tend to say
perhaps the PIO wording and intent wasn't quite exactly what is with equipment etc. I am a Veteran Fire and EMS of over 30 years in the Washington Metropolitan Aera. I Retired as a Lieutenant from Communications. As a Shift Supervisor I realized a Supervisor is accountable for the actions of shift personnel. Keeping mindful of the fact there was a lot of activity going on at that time. The two calls I can say with a degree of certain knowledge yes the two addresses did appear to be related based upon the closeness of their numbers. as far as what
A845 crew should've/could've done who among us can truthfully say what was the correct thing to do. Yes the Unknown Emergency call the crew on A845 did what they're supposed to do. Stage and let the Police secure the scene. Just for asking what wouldany of you critics do have done if the initial call was for a structure fire and Co845 units arrived on the
scene and found that inferno? As for the bs comment about safety, would you have sent FF's inside? I am inclined to believe you know better than to make such an ignorant statement or unfounded assumption. Worse yet suppose A845 did see the Fire and they as did occur, and they were still on the unknown emergency call. A845 drives up to the scene as was stated, can you say any degree of certainty that someone may have been waiting outside and start shooting at the crew on A845, or even the crew on E845? Who knows this fire may have been the result of a Domestic Violence call, or a break in. The individual who may be responsible still on the scene begins acts of violence towards the Fire and EMS Personnel. I find it very difficult to think and/or believe anyone in the Fire and EMS Service could/would stoop so low as to make ignorant statements about not buying the Safety Factor and bs this and bs that. You should be ashamed of yourself. As for the criticism abount PSC personnel, you have no idea what occureed that night. Things started happening real quick. There probably were other calls being handled at the same time. The people who work there have a tough time trying to deal with the getting accurate Dispatch information and yes even criticism from the other Public Safety people such as what is commented on here. You would be amazed how little you know about the 21st Fire and EMS Service. What would be your comments if you had seen or sent FF's inside nthat burning structure and you heard may day, may day dreaded call? As far as not buying safety in all aspects,
WHERE ARE YOUR PRIORITIES? Wake up smell the coffee. You're either a Career FF who worships the Union. If you are a Volunteer you probably
think like the 1960's mentality would. It reaaly doesn't matter if you're Career or Volunteer the SAME ACCOUNTABILITY is what is IMPORTANT. Welcome to the 21st Century FIRE AND EMS SERVICE/EVERYONE GOES HOME.
Thank You/Have a Nice Day
Everyone likes to complain about police officer's but here is another classic example of how the fire dept hides and waits around the corner until the police make the situation safe. I agree that it makes sense, but its worth noting, that the police officers always, always are in harms way, without the benifit of waiting.
Dave, these are some very good questions and maybe I can shed some light.
1) Two minutes is entirely too long for a dispatch. You ask why it wasn't recognized sooner that these calls could be one in the same? The only answer for that is INCOMPETENCE. Most of the dispatchers fall into this category. There are a few exceptions and we have some great dispatchers, they care about their jobs and the people on the street that they work with, but they can't be there all the time.
2) Staging and waiting for the police is common in unknown calls. But when faced with this potential, remember "sometimes it is better to act and ask for forgiveness later, rather than ask and be denied."
3) There are two problems in PG County which are growing by leaps and bounds. I imagine there are other areas of the Country experienceing the same. We have way too many Career firefighters who only want a paycheck, and we have way too many Volunteer firefighters who only want to wear the T-Shirt. Good, Aggressive, caring firefighters are getting harder to come by.
4) Apparatus in PG County is consistently and frequently sent on NON-Emergency calls and then denied by the communications center from responding on EMERGENCY calls. This is even when they may have been the first arriving or closest unit. Dispatchers have no clue about the County.
To prove that point, there is one station that consistently "bids" on calls. When they bid with a location of at their station they are usually denied, but, when they bid using the address of their station they are generally permitted to respond on the call they bid on, even if it is 3, 4 or 5 first dues aways from them. Explain that difference.
Knowing that you are only a block or half away from a reported fire and don't go to investigate is totally INCOMPETENT! Regardless of their damn General Orders. I am all about safety but remember, you signed up for a job that has inherent risks.
PGFD is fastly becoming a paper fire department, totally ignorant of reality.
If you really worked in a dispatch center you would know that the clock starts the moment a 911 first rings. 911 call answered in 3 rings, you're already 10 seconds into the call before the complaintant says their first word. Back in the old days a dispatcher took the call, hung up then wrote the time down or punched the card at the end of the phone call. Of course it takes a couple minutes to process a call from the time the phone 1st rings until the call is dispatched–it always has taken a couple minutes–now its just times more accurately. Sheeez
"Here is a novel idea! How about we just staff the fire trucks in the first place. PGFD is a joke."
I second the motion. All in favor?
Where were the police while all this was going on? There's your slow response!
When a 9mm become a part of my PPE I'll stop waiting around the corner.
PSC allegedly told A845 not to respond to the smoke column? Since when does a dispatcher outrank anyone?? Another thing…..how far down Old Indian Head did the ambo stage?? Staging is a few houses down, not so far away that they can see a smoke column but not the fire that has been described as so far advanced that first arriving units could not even make an interior attack. Additionally the mapbook they should have been looking at would tell them there is a good chance the calls are one and the same. They don't need communications to tell them that. That is common sense. Whoever was on the ambo was either scared, incompetent or both.
Lastly, for the ambo to get to the scene after the engine, the ambo couldnt even be on the same street. They were both coming from quarters. That means they are taking the same route. If the engine drove passed the ambo and the ambo fell in behind it they would arrive TOGETHER. If the engine drives down the street where the ambo is supposed to be but isn't, it arrives first and some time later the ambo arrives coming from somewhere. That removes the alleged staging excuse. In no way did the ambo do the right thing in this instance.
Uhhhh…you guys have guns that would probably be the reason you guys go in first ….you wanna solve the problem arm firefighters….lol
i hate when people monday morning quarterback a fire ground…… but as the deceased was a relative of mine one has to wonder how much effort was put forth in locating her. i doubt very much with a 2 man engine co. shame on the 2 on the ambo for not disobeying an order and going directly to the fire and attempting a rescue. i hope you can live with that. i know i would not be able to. and yes i am a fireman.
"Everyone likes to complain about police officer's but here is another classic example of how the fire dept hides and waits around the corner until the police make the situation safe. I agree that it makes sense, but its worth noting, that the police officers always, always are in harms way, without the benifit of waiting."
They have guns. Give me a gun, no need for county PD. Hell, give me a taser. Goes back to the old phrase "never take a knife to a gun battle". If we were equipped with guns, we'd go in. But we're not, so we wait.
Maybe it was 7 stupid ticks
My Goodness Gracious, everyone seems to want to lay blame on either A845 crew, or Communications. Ok as far as breaking the orders for ensuring each Fire and EMS unit would respond and take appropriate on scene position. I am inclined to believe the blame this one or blame Communications is somewhat out of line. I mentioned earlier that Comunications is the first contact Taxpayers have with Life Threatening Emergenies. I shall go out on a limb here and say they probably were able to connect the two locations once the additional
911 calls came in. During this time was the Responding Command Officer made aware of what was occurring? He/She at that time in all probability would have immediately began directing with orders on the Fire Ground Talk Group.During an on going emergency incident decisions/orders are given for everyone to carryout a specific assignment. As is a fact be known, quick snap decisions are made with the full intent to have responding units handle their assignment with due caution. Now with this Structure well involved
it had to be known there was little or no chance to effect a Rescue. Communications isnot an answering service. It's not a question of who out ranks who in a scenario such as this. The personnel on Co45 units and other units it would appear handled their duties as best they could. the term incompetence as it is used here reflects a vengenance spiteful attitude of some who think they're of a superior knowledge in the Fire and EMS Service. The Incident obviously was an most unfortunate thing to have occurred. If you really know and have the Basic Body of Knowledge in understanding what occurs in PSC you in all probability would demonstrate a more positive attitude of respect.
During my Career I had to deal with
negative attitudes Career/Volunteer who lashed out with words of negative bias against Communications. I handled it Professionally with the Chain of Command and my after action report, Tapes etc. It only happened once with specific people. They found out real quick theywerenot in a position to question any decision I made. Whynot get your friends together and say as a company schedule an appointment to go to PSC and find out what is exactly done with 911 calls etc. Everyone who was on the scene there, and from what I read and photos I saw things went pretty much in the best effort that could've have been done. I would be inclined to think there will be a critique and after action report as to what occurred and what if anything may have been/could've been handled differently. To say disregard orders and arm Firefighters with weapons that is absurd. Come on people you know better than that. What happens when there is no order and chaos on the fire ground?
Unfortunately things happen that are terrible. A Life is lost, Firefighters injured etc. Everyone should take the time think about what happened what maynot happened and hopefully each of you will be a better Firefighter having Learned something.
I guess the ambulance should have water and attack line on the unit from now on.
You people know a whole bunch of nothing!
Another day with "I'm Afraid to Fight Fire Local 1619". Yeah. Blame it on the police. But WHERE WERE THEY that they responded 6 minutes AHEAD of the engine but were BEHIND the engine time-wise going on the scene? SIGNIFICANTLY?
Looks like a "Rosenberg" all over again only in PG!
Answer to the why did the ambo show up minutes after the engine "grassy knoll theory" that some of you are posting….well here you go: A845 was told to continue to stage by communications and minutes later the wagon drove by! Once communications determined that the calls were one in the same, Comm put A845 as the WFD ambulance. Now you know!!!! Now you all can move on and pick apart another part of this unfortunate call!!!
God Bless the Thomas Family….
If some of you fire geniuses can fill me in….what type of situation could occur on Old Indian Head Road that would require security from the police…..old people with canes?
Not to make light of the serious need for security at an emergency scene, but this ain't Seat Pleasant…..it's Old Indian Head Road….
Once again, you have dispatchers running a fireground, and now you have these consequences. I hope the family sues PGFD into oblivion!
How in God's name don't the police get to the scene 1st???
1.There was a 2 for 1 sale at Dunkin Donuts, delay due to having to brush the powdered sugar off the dark uniforms.
2.Police were actually too afraid to go in by themself, they had to wait until there were 6 of them before taking action.
3.police too busy surfing fire/ems sites to see if firemen were talking about them.
Hey guys, go do some male bonding on a cop chat site and let this site to us. P.S. check out the story above about the firemen who saved the cop who tried this fire stuff.
OK People, Enough of the Sarcasim and vengeful,spiteful, words of Bias and Sterotyping. A previous comment said "Another day I am afraid to Fight Fire Local 1619" That remark careless ignorant remark is totally out of line and uncalled for. If I remember correctly several weeks ago a young 21year old Career Firefighter was inside a burning structure with a charged hose line. He unfortunately became Trapped and the worse scenario that can occur on firegroung. May Day May Day dreaded call. A group of Volunteers came inside and effected the rescue and brought this young man out of harms way. Ok now for the record based upon those stupid remarks about Afraid to fight a Fire Local 1619, What would be your words and thoughts if that was a 21year old Volunteer inside the structure same scenario, became Trapped, and a group of Career Firefighters Local 1619 went inside to effect the Rescue and brought this 21 year old Volunteer Firefighter out? One thing for all to think about and remember Those Career Firefighters Local 1619 just may pull you out of a burning building. This same issue reflects the Career Firefighters who are quick to judge and criticize the Volunteers. They just may pull you
out of a burning building. It's time now people to let by gones be by gones. Whatever happened or didnot in the past is done. It's time now for everyone to Trust and Respect each other insofar as realizing the Combination System is in place. The 1960's mentality and words of Superiority by both factions must stop. It's most important to ensure the ICS is in place for all to practice and follow the respective entities involved with ICS. Why is always the issue to place blame on each other on a working incident? The structure in question was well involved with rapid Fire spread, so any attempt to effect the Rescue of the Elderly Woman would have probably been a more tragic result. The Elderly Woman Good Lord Rest her Soul, was probably deceased as quickly as the fire spread. The Investigation will bring out all the results. It shouldnot/mustnot be an us and them we and they PGFD. Please I implore and hope each and everyone of you will make every attempt to make the system work. Yes Staffing is an absolute Top Priority. The Fire Chief, his Senior Staff, The Leadership of IAFF Local 1619, and the Leadership of the Volunteer Sector have to really swallow your Pride and Reach out to each other. There is a Training Requirement/Standard for all to abide by. The Taxpayers expect and Deserve the best from eaach Faction Career/Volunteer. 21st Century Fire and EMS Service.
"FIREFIGHTER SAFETY/EVERYONE GOES HOME". Each of you Career/Volunteer
owe it to yourselves, to make sure this concept is always in place.
To add another sad chapter to this story, I recently heard that a friend of the family drove by the "staged" ambulance and realized the house was on fire. He quickly drove to the victims sons house which is nearby. The two of them returned to the house and tried to enter but were unable to do so. All while the ambulance sat "staged". None of this may have made a difference but I cannot imagine how it must have felt for the family knowing the fire department was there up the street and did not come to help.
I would like to make a correction to a previous comment. A comment stating the the time for Dispatch process begins with the onset of a 911 call. The point in question spoken about 3 rings is true, however you must realize that there are more than one or two call takers. Perhaps each call taker may have been committed on a 911 line. Also ther were as has been stated numerous 911 calls at the same time reporting House on Fire with two conflicting locations as was with the unknown emergency. Now for the fact be known The standard for Time Line
of 911 call to Dispatch. It begins after the 911 call is received and both the 911 call taker and the Taxpayer have hung up. The Time Line then begins with (1) Getting the Dispatch Assignment ready to go.(2) Alerting the Stations. (3)
Apparatus is staffed and Responding on the Road. The criteria behind this standard is based upon Jurisdiction without CAD Technology and today's Technology with a CAD System Yes the CAD System does in certain aspects take a few seconds to get the Assignment readied for Dispatch. Then there is the task of ensuring the units are available, and any editing or perhaps adding unit (s) to the call. This is done with Shift Officer making any Decision He/She deems approprite based upon 911 call info. Keep mindful in any jurisdiction where immediate Station Alerting and Apparatus is quick the actual Dispatch/Response Time is less time. Those Jurisdictions where Stations are alerted by Pager Alert, and sufficient Staffiing at the may not be already to get Apparatus on the Street. By all accounts the Basic Time Line should be 3-5 minutes. Also keep mindful of the fact that getting necessary info from an hysterical 911 caller may take alittle more time. Today with the Technology of ANI/ALI Display this helps quite a bit. The time line also may increase if the caller is alone in the Residence and advises they are unable to get out. The 911 Call Taker must then
remain on line with the caller until units arrive and hopefully be able to advise whefre inside the person is located. Then there is EMD/ Pre Arrival Instructions which have proven to be a significant help in saving Life by a 911 Center. Bottom Line everyone needs to have Trust and Respect for the Dispatchers. So next time you get the urge to place blame on Communications, and responding units stop and think what their job is about. Better yet whynot schedule a visit to PSC and find out who and what's on the other end of the Radio/Telephone. You can be the best Trained Firefighter
in your mind, however until the PSC obtains all the relevant info to assist you in Location, nature and other info you cannot function to the level you so freely speak about. Think about what it may be to try and illicit 911 info from a screaming person reporting a Fire, EMS call. ie; Unresponsive Baby or Senior Citizen. Once you can/hopefully you will, then realize your term incompetence and who out ranks who is totally uncalled for. Learn and make a difference in your attitude which will ultimately lead you improve your skills as a Firefighter/EMT-B
Paramedic. Think about it.
Funny someone brought up herrington Drive, yet Another communications debacle! Evacuation tones instead of mayday tones, repeating wrong location of victim, etc.
listen to the audio,sad
The Communications Division has definetly deteriorated over the last few years. The days of Hutch are over and we all should operate accordingly, "assume the information given is only close to correct, and they are witholding some other important tidbit."
All kidding aside, one one occasion in Oxon Hell they actually told me 6 times to reset my EI. I couldn't as I was fleeing the man with the gun that was chasing me. They never relayed I was having a problem to they PD. I was told since I survived the incident nothing would be said to the dispatchers as we (the FD) have no control over them (PSC) anymore.
Operate accordingly. It was the deputy director of PSC's son on Herrington, how do you think they feel now?
So if it was reversed and an engine was sitting staged on an investigation call and a call was dispatched for a heart attack several doors away it is acceptable for the engine to remain and not take the imeediate threat to life call?? It would be fine for the engine to say "hey, we don't carry a cot"? How about this….The ambulance wasn't going into their call yet anyway, why not check out the obvious house fire?? Or maybe if they did check the house, and "couldn't" try and effect an interior rescue, maybe they could have located an area where the victim was from the outside and directed the first units in faster?? The point here is there are a whole lot of unanswered questions because they DIDN'T do what they should have done. If they had, what questions would be asked??
I am a 20 yr firefighter, very familiar with communications, Old Indean Head Rd., and 45 (was there for several years). I can tell you for a fact that I would have not sat in an ambulance and not ensured that I did everything possible to handle any immediate threat to life which as far as I can see was the fire, not sitting on the side of the road watching other units go by. IF communications told the ambulance not to check the fire, they were wrong. The ambulance WAS wrong for not checking it even IF they were told not to by PSC. As I said before, the ambulance crew was either scared (of PSC or fire), incompetent (unable to make the correct, common sense decision in an emergency), or both. And that would go for either career or volunteer personnel.
I truly believe, as one person commented earlier, this comes down to a deteriorating communications division. I can not tell you how many times we were sent on sick people calls only to walk in on domestics in progress, or how many time we staged for 30-45 mins because it was never relayed to us that nothing was found and we could go home. When we complain we are just told that communications is not under us anymore and nothing can be done.
It sounds like there is a little blame for everyone in this case. I agree everyone needs to go home but we can not continue to use that as an excuse to do nothing. We are in a dangerous profession the only way to make it completely safe is to do absolutely nothing.
I must say reading the recent comments lashing out at Communications, it would seem there is a feeling of Negative not trusting the PSC. Ok some of the points made do appear tohave some validity. I am also inclined to believe that my previous Comments werenot meant or open to any negative interpetation towards or against Craeer/Volunteer and Communications. The comment that everyone goes home is in some way an excuse not to do anything. As far as rushing towards the scene of an obvious working fire without first having knowledge of entrapment and sufficient staffing and equipment. This would employ a chaotic free lansing fire ground. This would in all probability result in a disastrous result. The Responding OIC (Incident Commander)
was he/she made aware of what the scene activity/as far as Fire Showing, what units were there etc. The first order of concern was or should have been, with A845 nearby on what was an initial Unknown Emergency, E845 w/2 personnel. Was a RIT Requested? Was there an additional unit sent to supplement E845 Staffing? Was there an immediate 2/out in place?
I did read a working Fire Dispatch was sent and A845 went. Was there any other unit (s) sent along with A845? Was a request made to PSC to get these issues Dispatched. I am curious however Old Idian Head Road is I presume a Rural area. Was a Tanker, or Tankers sent initially or requested? If not whynot. The Incident Commander probably already on the fire ground Talk Group was I will say as a Professional he/she was probably sizing up what to expect upon arrival. As far as Communications aren't they in a Public Safety Division? If so then why isnot or cannot any LEGITIMATE complaint of concern of what occurred be submitted through the proper Organizational Authorities?
As for the comment I again deplore the absolute foolishness of this remark. Everyone Goes Home isnot an Excuse. It is an actual reality of what can and has occurred with Firefighters all over the USA. As for the 20 year old firefighter who says he knows about Communications, Young Man you would be Amazed at how little you know about Communications. I can guarrantee you donot know anything about the purpose inner workings reasons concerning why Call types with today's Technology works. What do you think occurs when a Hysterical Taxpayer,calls and screams her Baby isnot Breathing, or an Elderly Peron has fallen or unresponsive. There are times when a Taxpayer calls and reports their House is on Fire. Sometimes a 911 call taker must stay on the line with that person to determine where inside they are located. Young Man do you know what EMD is, represents? I seriously doubt it. EMD is a structure process of specific questions to ask, in an emergency. This process is designed to sustain a Human Life as best as can be done until the arrival of Fire and EMS Personnel.
Just for your information EMD is a State Mandated Entity. Every jurisdiction must have Personnel Trained in EMD. As far as criticism of Dispatchers there is no difference in that the criticism
against Career/Volunteer Personnel. Bottom Line everyone in Today's Fire and EMS Service has an important Role to ensure the best Level Of Professional Customer Service is afforded to the Taxpayers.
May 4, 2009 11:55 AM
The post dated and time stamped above is exactly the point I was making about communications. PSC is not, and should never be, a command presence. They are an information obtaining/dispensing entity. Your statement that the ambulance should not have responded to the fire due to the possibility of "freelancing" and possibility of "disasterous result" is absurd. Is a death not disasterous?
"As for the 20 year old firefighter who says he knows about Communications, Young Man you would be Amazed at how little you know about Communications. I can guarrantee you donot know anything about the purpose inner workings reasons concerning why Call types with today's Technology works. What do you think occurs when a Hysterical Taxpayer,calls and screams her Baby isnot Breathing, or an Elderly Peron has fallen or unresponsive. There are times when a Taxpayer calls and reports their House is on Fire. Sometimes a 911 call taker must stay on the line with that person to determine where inside they are located. Young Man do you know what EMD is, represents? I seriously doubt it. EMD is a structure process of specific questions to ask, in an emergency."
As for this quote, I assume you are at PSC. Had you listened/read the paragraph I wrote you would have not gone off on your tangent. I hope you pay more attention to the callers/firefighters/emts, and officers over the radio. What I said was that I am a 20 YEAR FIREFIGHTER in the PG County system. NOT 20yrs old. I am an officer in the fire department and work daily with psc. I know all aspects of the dispatch system and do not need them recited. As far as size up of the situation there was none done within minutes due to the ambulances failure to act. Was there a tanker dispatched, was there 2 IN/out established, was a RIT dispatched, etc…all irrelevent when it comes to the potential life saving measures that could have been taken by the ambulance if they had acted.
We are in a life saving business. We go in when it is not safe to do so. We risk our lives to save others. That is our JOB. I'm not saying we do things to unduly endanger ourselves, but it is our duty under oath to protect and serve. It is our job to risk our lives to save others. When we do not do that to the best of our ability we fail and people die.
While there are several individuals at PSC that I call friends and who are very good call takers/dispatchers, they are the exception rather than the rule. PSC pales in comparison to years ago. And so that this is not confused with anything else I have said, I am not saying PSC is to blame for the majority of this incident. The crew on the ambulance should have acted and done their job. They did not and any window of opportunity to save a life was lost.
Continued from above:
Anyway, on to the f up by the PGFD and PGPD. First, they were showing the call as 10190 not 10200. Didn't matter though, same driveway, this was explained to them by her son. He said, send them to either address, they will see the fire from the highway! Now, by this time A845 shows up, she can't advance because she did not have her gear, she was expecting a medical, not fire. Proper protocol or not, PGPD were total D's to the whole family, especially the son. As the first trucks arrived 15 minutes later, they tried to force him away from the chief. All he was doing was explaining to the chief where all the panels were and the dangers that lurked in the house. Way we all saw it was the firefighters jobs are dangerous enough, no need to put them in more danger by not alerting them to things in the house, like a propane tank near the kitchen area. Oh, yes, another thing, they (media) reported it as a natural gas leak or whatever. That was not the case at all. There was no gas in the house, what happened is a tank cooked off from the fire, it did not start the fire. Anyways, once Marlboro was on scene they took their dear old time charging the lines and beginning their attack. I just wish Brandywine had been first due, they knew the location and they all would have risked life and limb to find her. We know most that company personally. Naturally, there are things known within the department that aren't being leaked. Like the fact that from the time Ms. Thomas phoned 911 to when the first truck arrived was 30 minutes! Notice, they didn't timestamp the trucks arrival, they just said dispatched two minutes later, yeah, took them over 20 minutes to get to the house. It takes 5 minutes going highway speeds on 301. They lacked clear command, they truly looked lost looking at the fire, which was pretty intense. They may not have been able to make entry thru the front, but nothing was stopping them from entering through the bedroom window. If I had a tank and an extinguisher, I would have made entry. You would have taken 6-8 steps outside her bedroom door and found her. A search should have been done, but I am sure, they knew from the time that elapsed there was little to no hope. The grandchildren were called home from the caps game to be informed on the way back that they had lost their grandmother that night. When they heard the house was on fire, they thought, you know, she burned something on the stove, little damage done, shes okay, going to be standing outside with the rest of the family when we get there. That was the hardest set of phone calls I know they have ever taken. Each parent calling their children to tell them to take their time getting back as it was too late and there was nothing they could do. The PGFD investigators were so poor at their jobs, the family hired private investigators. After talking with other people in the county, I have realized this is not uncommon. They literally were at a loss for what caused it, well the private investigators figured it out. That was money well spent, shame is you already paid your taxes for the county investigators to do their job! It was hard enough loosing that dear woman like this, but then get get shafted by both departments was just a slap in the face. Naturally, neither department wants to own up to their actions. My favorite part that night was seeing that big new rig show up. It is the PGPD Homeland Security rig. What a waste of taxpayer money, thanks Jack Johnson, so glad to see you are really looking out for us. You have the PGPD on furlough, but you still want that neat new rig. I don't hold either department responsible in her death or destruction of the property, I just wish they would own up to the mistakes made so that they can learn from them to prevent future incidents from unfolding as this did. And don't worry about us too much, we all take great comfort in knowing she is with husband and her Lord in Heaven. One day, we will see her again.
Alright folks, this is kind of amazing. I am trolling for pictures, and I come across this. I am related to the victim, I won't say how as that is no ones business, but let's just say with what I will say, you will know that I speak the truth.
Okay, first, the woman was named Dorothy Thomas. This was a cluster you-know-what from jump street. First, she tried to call my relative either to talk as the caps game was on and she may have been having trouble finding the channel or to report the fire. Her grandchildren were at the game. Either way, she did not get thru, then she called 911 a minute or two after. By this time she was distressed and panicked, believe me, I knew her. When you are in that situation you don't know what to do. She had a medical condition where she had a hand tremor, this combined with the panicked state, I think she was unable to get out onto the balcony, since she was found by the double doors that led to the deck. The deck had no stairs, so the family members that were frantically searching the house as it burned would not have been able to see her or reach her. Her son fought like the dickens to reach her, from crawling into the bedroom window, to trying the basement up. She was trapped because the fire was blocking the basement stairs and the main exit out the house. I think she wanted out, not to go to a back room like we all hoped she had, that is why she never made it out.