Usually the biggest worry for a fire chief who has gathered the public and the press together for a sprinkler demonstration is whether the sprinkler head is going to activate as promised. Livingston Fire Protection Inc. made sure that wasn’t a problem during Wednesday’s demonstration using two side by side mock dorm rooms at Gallaudet University in the District of Columbia. It operated at just 12 seconds into the fire.
It was the fire on the unsprinklered side that occurred minutes earlier that caused a little excitement and had Chief Dennis Rubin asking for someone to put out the firefighters. At about 3:10 on the video above you will see a plastic barrier melt and drip down in a large flaming clump on the three firefighters who were extinguishing the fire.
It was much more obvious to the audience than to the firefighters themselves that something was amiss. All three had plastic burning on their PPE. It took a little more than 30 seconds before the fires were put out.
On Friday, DC Fire & EMS Department officials confirmed that a sergeant from Engine 6 was burned on the cheek and hand. He spent the night in the MedStar Burn Unit of the Washington Hospital Center and was released.
Also on STATter911 …
- The Rube exits: Listen to Chief Dennis Rubin’s farewell message to the DC Fire & EMS Department. – December 31, 2010
- Dennis Rubin sues DC over retirement. Councilmember Mendelson scoffs at The Rube wanting more money. – December 7, 2011
- DC firefighter paid for not showing up to work for more than two years. Part of a 2008 corruption probe. – December 9, 2010
- More on DC’s new fire chief: WTOP Radio discovers tax problem; Kenneth Ellerbe meets the press; Fire Chief’s Wilmoth questions the appointment. – December 16, 2010
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Oh my God, you guys are gay talking about this safety and defensive crap!!
Thats the same effort Chief Crosswhite used on another Rescue of a Firefighter… but then he got a Medal for that one… Such BS.
I'm not sure which is more embarrassing, the video or some of the comments on here. How come nobody has asked why the crew was positioned so close before the nozzle was opened (this is a demonstration burn not a training fire), the fire stream pointed and sprayed low and only went up once, and they never checked above their heads before they entered, otherwise they would have seen the fire and plastic above them. Oh yeah, why did they enter on a friggin box? Why did the CO remain kneeling instead of checking on his or her crew after he was extinguished. Obviously there is more hate for the fire chief and EMS than common sense.
For the guy who asked why there was plastic on the box and maybe they didn't know it was there, isn't there another box set up beside the one burning? In fact, couldn't you see it before they went up to the fire. WTF dude? Get a clue!
The comparison to the Hillendale is that both crews lacked situational awareness. In Hillendale they went in before spraying water. This one they just didn't look up and knock it all down before they went in. They didn't catch on fire, the poly dripped on them and was burning. Same results, embarassing for the fire service.
I'm glad the crew is OK. I'm sad that there seems to be a culture that crawling inside a fire is OK? If there was somebody in there, yeah I get it. For a friggin prevention demonstration, the ignorance of the fire service showed through more so on these blogs than the video.
OMG WTF that was some silly stuff….the difference between an experiment and a demonstration…rube you made a clown of yourself ……HAHAHAHA big city shiip of foooooolsss
Firefigting tactics, live fire training and common sense asside (with harshness and venom removed, I agree with most coments), the other not mentioned impact is to fire sprinkler advocates and the messages they are trying to communicate to the public by way of these effective live sprinkler demonstrations. A little less sensationalism by the reporting of Statter would have been of better service to the firefighters invoived and to the fire sprinkler advocates.
Two words… Risk Management. Between the cost of medical treatment(my estimate is between $1000-$2000), Gear replacement and/or cleaning(my estimate is several hundred $ to $1000), and the untold damage to at least one fire officer's reputation (evidenced by watching the crew OIC drag his F/F in to the burning demonstration by the SCBA bottle on his back!), this public safety demonstration has definitely cost more than it should have. Lucky thing most of the public in attendance were none the wiser. I'll end with this… "Risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little". Beyond that, I'd personally be embarrassed to have my interior firefighting gear dirtied in this manner.
I am glad to see you think we are sensational.
More specifics, please. How about writing the story the way you would like it done.
You can't expect to invite the press to an event and expect us to ignore it when things don't go as planned.
The only reason I knew about this is because I was editing the demonstration to put on the site and saw it myself.
Hard one to overlook.
Sorry.
Statter
While there are many valid points here and some not, one that has not been addressed is that this can be a clear cut demonstration of how fire sprinklers can save the lives or prevent injuries to fire fighters too. This type of incident did not, and likely would/could not have occurred in a fire sprinkler protected building.
Let the comments begin on how fire sprinklers will put us out of the fire fighting business.
ENOUGH!! Who is this Anonymous guy anyway? Look here cowards, you are entitled to your opinion, but MAN UP!! If you are going to say it OWN IT!! Grow a set and stand by the shots you are taking. I am tired of all the Brother BS that is thrown around in the Fire Service. These guys are MY BROTHERS!! I refuse to stand by and let all you COWARDS bash them hiding behind the Anonymous tag. If you really cared about your "brothers" you would keep your shots to yourself. I see no purpose in taking shots at someone who ended up in the burn unit. If someone is truly my brother, I know I can say something to them Man to Man. MAN UP OR SHUT UP!!
The Rube said to immediately call the Fire & EMS Dept.
DO NOT call them!!!
Call the Fire Dept if you want some help.
The EMS part is why we're in this mess!!
DCFD -
Once Again "GREAT PR" For The District Of Columbia Fire Department! THANKS Chief! -As Far As The Fire Is Concerned…The Engine Company Proceeded As Any Engine Company Would Have…They Advanced A Charged Attack Line of Their Choice And Applied Water To the "Hot Stuff/FIRE"! The Only Issue Was The "APPLICATION OF WATER" By The "LINEMAN"! Big Fires Or Small Fires: Water Application Is "The KEY" To success Or Failure! Direct Attack/Indirect Attack "WHATEVER"! Sweep The Base Of The Fire People…Clear The Doorway…Move In On It! The Fire Tends To Go Out…AMAZING How That Happens With Proper WATER-APPLICATION. Lesson learned…No Big Deal! It Happens! Fires Burn! Firefighters Get Burned! It's Part Of The Profession! All You Can Do… Is Do Your BEST! -Either Way You Look At It…The Engine Company Put The Fire Out! NOT Pretty, But Effective! -P.S. To All You "FAKES" Out There That Call Yourself Firemen…Get A Life! -Dont Worry, The "REAL" Firemen Will Pick-Up Your Slack And Continue To Carry You When Your Standing In The Yard Watching A Family Burn-Up Because Your Too Scared To Do Anything About It! -Hope The "BROTHERS" Recover Soon! …Just Another Day
At approximately 3 minutes and 12 seconds I saw all 3 firemen in some way inside the wooden box.
That (demonstration) fire could have been extinguished from outside of the IDLH environment without the use of SCBA from a safe distance.
Risk Vs. Benefit ?
Good luck with your speedy recovery…both firemen and DCFD.
As an officer in the DCFD I am unbelievably embarassed by this incident. I am also embarassed by the people on here defending these guys. It was plain stupid. That was about as dumb as climbing into a car on fire to put it out from the inside. Guys acting like that are going to do more damage to the way we operate than the Rube is ever going to do. Our way of Firefighting is being attacked everyday and these dumbasses just gave them even more ammo. And for you guys trying to defend them, remember there is no honor in stupidity. Putting someones house out is our job, trying to crawl into a plywood box is dumb.
I guess Rube will use this fiasco as a visual aid in his next "Lemons to Lemonade" seminar! Soon to be at a fire house not near you. Rube will be hitting the road again soon, I'm sure, to tell everyone else how THEY should be doing it instead of staying home looking after his troops. Nice. He sounded SOOOoo concerned in that video……NOT!
OK, we've all got an opinion or two or three on everything. Let's just learn from others experiences and make sure we never fall victim to the same "issues". None of us are perfect.
Preplans, Need I say more. Did at anytime, before the fire was started, did the firefighters take a look at what was going to burn in the room?
Please learn from their mistakes, there not the first ones to do something like this and Fore sure not the last ones.
Give the credit to the MC for this one. You know the OIC or the Safety Officer were watching.
Best luck to the burned firefighter, you will never forget this one.
p.s. one firefighter was fully inside this room, the other 2 were half way in. Replay it again and look closely.
To all the "brave" fire fighters on here defending the actions of the "engine company" – Interior attack is something that DC, as well as most of the area departments, do on a daily basis. But…. please remember this was NOT an actual incident, especially one that demanded any risky behavior. This was an advertised sprinkler demonstration given to the local press for the benefit of the public! When all the eyes, ears, and camera lenses will be trained on you and your crew, it is not the time to have "fun" or "show off". Yes, Yes…. we know that they are a great fire fighting crew, but perhaps they were suffering from a bit of "macho man" disease. All one has to do is watch the sprinkler demonstration in College Park a day earlier and see what should have happened. Anyone out there who believes any thing different is short sighted and suffering from the good ole' tunnel vision. Just something to think about.
Lt. A.N. Onymous
Well, my heart goes out to anyone caught in an embarrassing situation. Been there myself and have the scars to s how for it. Hopefully everyone recovers and gets back to work. It is the good work we all do.
Regarding "Mr. Anonymous". Just who is that anyway? Must be related to "They". Discourse of this nature is ruining civilized interaction and discussion. Sixty Six comments as I write this and the only people on this entire list that have any guts are Dave Statter and the other two gentlemen that gave their names. Sack up boys and girls – have the integrity and the courage to identify yourself or keep your saddleback opinions to yourself.
I think the FF's did a great job of advancing the hoseline to put the fire out ! BUT we need to get back to the basics of fire fighting CHECK FOR FIRE OVERHEAD I also know we ALL get tunnel vision from time The best thing we can do is use this video as a reminder of safety first. I have seen houses saved and houses lost the best thing to remember is EVERYONE WENT HOME this comes from a career FF and a proud VOL FF !!!!!!!I also am not scared to post my name it is Jim PCVFD/NSB FIRE RESCUE
From a totally compliant 1403 department perspective some factors were obviously overlooked.
This was a public relations/public education event. As such any and all aspects of fire control and full familiarization with the set design and makeup,materials used and expectations with the actual crew assigned for suppression should have occurred prior. This so everyone was on the same page. Critical errors ultimately have occurred which ultimately resulted in injured members. The DCFEMS Chief should have had a script and followed it,a couple of times he was out of synch, makes one wonder whether he was in front of the set or elsewhere. From the view of the camera man up until the plastic came down it was mostly good. This make no mistake was a live fire so 1403 should have been in place and
followed before ignition occurred. A entry team did indeed breach the opening so where was the safety line in case of an emergency. No sweep up and around the entry zone, Tunnel vision,lack of sizeup,good intent very poor execution. Not a great day for NIOSH to see this happening I expect. Best wishes to the members injured for a speedy recovery. We all learn from these types of incidents, one wonders what the real end result was for the students, which message will they remember,the burning members or that sprinklers actually work.
"I would expect to see this type of retarded action with a rual volli co. but this is a professional fire dept., come on rube your making us look bad… I mean worse!!!"
You paid guys think that because you get paid to do this job you are better than us "vollies" the only difference between us is the pay scale we should all be considered PROFESSIONALS but the "firefighter" that posted the above is just an egotistic punk who thinks he is better than us "redneck firefighters running around in our long coats and tall rubber boots"
OK guys fist off, volunteers tend to have more sense than this, we too are professionals. I don't want to beat up the jacka*s that mentioned volunteers but I have seen vollie companies that could kick ass over paid departments because we actually trained every week.
Second, whether you are planning to go in our not, NFPA 1403 (although it may not apply) should at least cross your mind (secondary water sources/back up teams)if not just some dam safety and self preservation sense. They decided to go in, wouldn't you? They missed the burning archway they were proceeding under and that is what screwed them. If they had hit that it would not have been a big deal.
As a chief office I hope I never have to tell one firefighter to put another out!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL I can only imagine what comments would be on here had this happened to a vlounteer department. "rural" "traffic vest" "brother" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL "My vagina hurts"…. you guys are idiots.
Speedy recovery for the injured FF. Certainly going to be a "lesson learned" for FDs across the country. I certainly learned why it is important to sweep the ceiling before advancing the hose line.
Hey Dave,
Wouldn't it be a good idea to check IDs on here before allowing babies to post their negative, under-educated OPINIONS? A majority of these postings look like something you would find on a playground…really. These children are the ones standing on that same playground throwing sticks and stones. But wait, they claim to know it all…give me a break. Sh!t happens, plain and simple. Unfortunate as it is a firefighter got burned and I wish him a speedy recovery. That's what needs to be focused on. No Monday morning quarter backing, none of this " I told you so", If this and If that crap. Grow up people and stop using other people's misfortune for you to have a futile attempt at your moment of fame. Now hand me a baby wipe I have real work to do. Damn.
It appears to me, by the comments posted, that many run their FD's in the shadow of Federal agenicies. Mind you that pencil necked goofballs whom can't even throw a spiral make theses wonderful guidlines you mention. 1403 this and ou812 that. Maybe these numbers are what you all in these departments (we know whom you are) are reciting while standing as "safe" distance from a burning structure. Safety, Safety, Safety. ever stop and thing about that mind numb mantra that so many modern day fire "officials" site. Maybe the act of trying to be 100% safe all the time has made our profession weaker and thus less able to handle even the most small fires effectively. Cut the safety BS and go get the GD fire. Fire goes out and everyone after that is safe. I would wager that many reading this have gotten more injuries by twisting their ankle or knee stepping in a hole in the front yard during their bold act of being safe in the front yard of a house fire. The very fact this whole thing is any kind of a big deal and many jump on here quoting NFPA numbers they just looked up on google goes to show how far the job has fallen, vollie or career. If you get in and get it quick, yes you may get a minor burn, bumps, bruises, or God forbid a scratch, but the fire goes down quickly, lives are preserved and post modern neo-fire gear wearers can stand proud in the front yard safe and sound.
-Greenshield
Proud DCFD D-bag
I'm sorry, at 1st I thought someone had found a long lost episode of the Three Stooges Fireman series. God I love Moe, Larry, and Curly (Shemp not as much)
I do hope all injuries heal quickly and egos get re-inflated soon.
I cannot believe many of the comments here…we should learn as always…it does not matter if we are paid or volunteer we all fight the same thing…FIRE…valuable lessons learned…I hope they are all well…in my 20yrs I have not been to a perfect fire…it is to dynamic a process to believe we ever will have a fire without mistakes…so I hope the people making the rude and sarcastic comments never find themselves on the receiving end of one of these forums….
All I can say is, "Wow". I haven't watched the video. I just read some of the most amazing hate and rhetoric I have ever witnessed.
It's no wonder the fire service can't get funding and legislation in our favor. It's no wonder that when politicians think of who will control their disaster scenes, they think about making the cops the controlling agency.
This incident, like so many others in the fire service, reminds me of tigers eating their young. I'll watch the video later on, but the ranting and accusations, and just plain and simple hate toward each other is just amazing.
It used to be said that an argument in the fire service was just a little "brotherly disagreement". No, anymore, you all just can't abide each other. Its what is making us less professional and it's just plain sad.
1 – Give me SMART BRAVE Firefighters over BRAVE Firefighters any day!
2- These guys got so close they developed tunnel vission! All anyone had to do was to get the big picture, when you are raming down the throat of the fire it is very easy to loose the big picture
3- How does this look to the community? does this portray "profesionalism" whether they be vollies or career?
Big Fing deal about names, That is not the problem here. It is about the DC clowns that didnt have a back-up line, advanced into a shed, that they didn't need to, and NO ONE running to help these guys!!! THEY ARE ON FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT DONT JUST STAND THERE LISTENING TO YOURSELF TALK.Inproper training period! who cares about names when most of these people on hear are speaking the truth!
Electricians get electrocuted, Carpenters bang their fingers, and FIREMEN get burned…oh yeah, and SH!T happens. Grow up nerds….
The comments on this is proof that the fire service is at times more of a klan than a brotherhood. Why such bitterness between paid and volunteer. Good old fashioned rivalry is one thing but this is waaay past that. I also agree with Sgt. Alvarado, why so many anonymous postings.
I only hope the best for all firefighters involved and a speedy recovery. As a VFD guy I take offense at your comments that we are less qualified than paid. How many paid would give up their free time as we do for training and fire calls. Where was the RIT it is common practice in all training fires to have a RIT in my area.
This video has nothing to do going inside or standing outside a burning structure. Blah blah blah…. Do you seriously think that was a hardcore pipeman maneuver for a contained fire in a controlled environment? Have those guys ever been in a fire before? I wouldnt know, because just like a running back in the nfl after a 10 yard gain(who didnt need to celebrate),… ACT LIKE YOU'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE!!!
Who would have thought they needed a little more heat on their lids to look a little more salty! If you think that was an aggressive direct attack at the seat of the fire.. think again.. they were kinda slow.. maybe hesitant!
The stupidity exhibited in this video is almost beyond words. A very sad and embarrassing day for the DCFD.
All Burtonsville volunteers!!!!!
Very poor safety!! That being said, I am glad they are okay. We in the fire service should realize when being macho is going to get someone killed. One of the post talks about distance a nozzle is effective from. Why did this crew feel the need to enter or get close to a small box? We always want to get to the seat – even when unnecessary. Use this as a lesson learned!! This will fall on deaf and even burnt ears!!
For the one who said " all Burtonsville volunteers" now how can that be when all those idiots called in sick to staff their tick house. Then again from watching that video obvious they don't follow the rules downtown just like they don't follow them in Montgomery.
The comments on this is proof that the fire service is at times more of a klan than a brotherhood. Why such bitterness between paid and volunteer. Good old fashioned rivalry is one thing but this is waaay past that. I also agree with Sgt. Alvarado, why so many anonymous postings.
# posted by erikinsacramento : October 10, 2009 11:58 AM
*********************************
I wonder how many Eriks there are in Sacramento? Still sounds kinda annonymous to me.
ANybody on here saying that theres something all that wrong with the bustin of chops on here is wrong makes me wonder if you were the "cry to mommy" probie every firehouse hates. WAH WAH WAH, sombodies gettin called out for F'n up. If you're older than 30 and been in a fire station for more than 5 years, ya gotta learn to just shut your freakin pie hole when the bustin starts, it'll pass so much quicker if you don't enter the fray and try and justify yourself. Just take your lumps and wait for somebody else to screw up tommorrow and the heat gets off you and on to someone else. Jesus H. Criminey, go file a grievance ya panzy.
Lets see.
We have seen the Video.
We have seen waht has gone wrong.
Some are trying to turn this into a Volunteer versus Paid bashing.
There are a lot of posters that wont man or girls up and use their real names. Those are the ones that are most likly vest wearing yard guards. Caddy your comments were right on target.
So where does it go from here.
I would hope that a lesson is learned and the video is used as a training tool.
I know we will use the video as a training tool.
In closing Bart get better.
Lt T. Cosgrove Jones
Drill School
The day we stop learning from mistakes is the day we should find another job.
I wasn't there, and I have only the one camera angle to go off of, as a result my understanding of the situation is limited to what I could hear and see.
I don't wear a white hat, but I would like to think that a chief that noticed there wasn't a second charged line would have mentioned it to the Lt. or Capt. on the engine. I realize that it is a demonstration fire, but if you think that taking easy proactive safety measures don't make sense, then Brother, I don't want to work with you.
I'll plead guilty, and admit that if I had done a walk through I probably wouldn't have noted the plastic sheeting as a hazard, and if I had advanced my hose team into the room, I would have made a similar cascade of errors.
As a retired Super Model I don't get that excited when the press show up to a scene and begin filming, and I never check the evening news for coverage of the fires I've worked, in an attempt to catch myself on TV, and I've never called my buddies and told them to turn on the evening news to catch me putting out the fire while they were on the difficulty defecating medical run. But that's just me. I've heard that some people get especially excited in front of the media, and try to make themselves look dramatic. Maybe that's what happened here.
This was a case of friendly fire in the fire service. I say own up to your mistakes and learn from them. I have a buddy who recently used the term "rekindle" as the first unit on scene, and is still looking for his ass after the battalion chief helped him reconsider his actions.
May the healing be fast for those injured, and enjoy those moments with our families at home, and at our 2nd home, the station.
Anybody remember the guy in the Movie "Roxanne"…. Hey you're on fire..Yea right, I'm not falling for that one again!
Nice job, brothers. Bashing injured firefighters while hiding behind "anonymous".
Leave your real name if you stand behind what you say. Otherwise, you're just another mouth.
Grow a set.
Look brothers, we were not there, so lets not be so quick to judge by watching 2 minutes of video. Instead of just being the "standby company" on the demonstration, maybe the Sgt. was utilizing this rare opportunity of knocking down a flashover to drill his men. It appears to me that the Sgt. was talking to his lineman, did anyone stop to consider maybe he was instructing them on the properties of a fully involved fire, and flashovers. If you look at the video closely, it appears that they barely broke the front plane of the box. Maybe with the 1-2 foot of plexiglass hanging down in front, they could not effectively knock the fire that was up high from thier position. Maybe the Sgt. or another member of the crew saw something from where they were that we could not see by watching the video, and he had them move up. Had it not been for the plexiglass melting down on top of them, this would not have become the mountain that it has. So we use this as a learning tool. Use it to teach, and show possible outcomes. I have not talked to anyone who was there or involved in this demonstration, I am merely offering a different perspective, as there are two sides to every coin, and I think the "they screwed up" side of the coin has been played out, and worn out on this blog. So take the video and use it as a learning tool, and leave it at that. Remember, we practice like we play, so the danger is always there. Stay safe, and lets wish a speedy recovery to the brothers.
Rule number 1 of PR: "never screw up on a slow news day"
Guys, lets us look at this as a perfect example of "tunnel vision" and not doing a 360 (looking at the big picture). Paid or volunteer, we can use this to learn and make our service better and safer.
Also, let's remember – RISK ALOT – SAVE ALOT !! RISK A LITTLE – SAVE A LITTLE !!! In all reality, what were we saving ?!?! I don't say that to be critical of these guys, I say it to remember to keep this in mind for the future.
"Never Forget" unfortunately came about because of 9-11 but I think it is a motto that fits EVERY firefighter in all aspects of our job.
Lastly, remember our # 1 goal, "Everyone goes home safe !!!".
Wow, i am continually amazed at the stupidity of the postings of those "Anonymous" experts. This was not a big deal. A BOX was built to demonstrate the benefits of a home sprinkler system. When the unprotected BOX was well involved, three well trained firefighters moved in to put it out so the other BOX could be used to show the protected benefit. Yes, a piece of plastic, that I think was there to enable the observers to witness the smoke banking down, caught fire and melted. This simply dripped down onto the crew. It took a few moments for them to realize that the material was on them and still burning. OK, but still not a big deal. They were in their full protective ensemble. One of them got burned, that is not good. But I am sure his burns are not severe or life threatening. Hero mentality, Hillandale Incident, idiots- all comments from the severely challenged, I am sure. I don't know these firefighters, I don't know where or if they volunteer, and I don't care. Come on people, grow up and own your comments. If you really are the be-all and know-all of the fire service, then stand proud. Put your name to it. But if you want to armchair QB, throw out negative BS, and be a coward, then do what your momma should have told you to do…….Keep your big "mouth" shut!!!
Captain Steve Alderton
(sorry this came through as Anonymous, trouble figuring out how to change that part. Hope the signature is as good)
It happens, next year just don’t use the plexi they used to contain the heat to set off the sprinkler for the sprinkler side of the demo on the free burn side of the demo.