Video from Detroit garage fire.

Recent videos have shown firefighters fighting car fires without proper PPE and SCBA. This just kicks the risk up a notch. After all it’s just a car fire inside a garage — or is it a structure fire with a car in it?

I take it you guys don’t work for Detroit or any of the other departments that you get on here and criticize on how ‘unsafe’ their tactics are…Well that is probably why none of the guys in this video, or for that matter the entire Detroit Fire Department probably even care what the two of you or any of you safety gurus think. Once again for those who are slow…Do what you think is right in your own department and stop telling others in other departments how they should fight their fires. After all, if you feel that standing outside while peoples homes and belongings burn to the ground then by all means go ahead and continue those tactics, those of us who disagree with the ‘exterior only’ approach promise not to get on here and ridicule your tactics or the photos of their aftermath. Just stop getting on here and criticizing what other people do in departments that you do not work for, or have any idea how they operate or why they operate the way they do. Deal? Great! Have a happy new year, I am sure that yours will be a safe one…

You know at this rate Detroit’s going to run out of things to burn in 2 years. What will these guys do then?

None of you “Sidewalk Standouts” could hold the nomex hoods that Detroit firefighters wear. While you guys are trying out your vests for proper fit and buddy checking each other in the front yard, these guys are going to fires, alot of fires at that. Stay safe !

I won’t argue the SCBA issue in smoke, and I have no information other than what I see and hear in the video.

I didn’t know there was a car in there until I saw the garage door open up. Here in Texas there are all sorts of unique and nasty surprises that get stored in garages.

I want to believe they didn’t wear their SCBAs because of their SOPs and extensive and specific knowledge of the community they serve and the equipment that works best for them. Not because they trusted what dispatch relayed from a citizen caller with the best of intentions, but a long history (in my experience) the worst record of relaying accurate information that this was only smoke coming from an unattached garage.

If the decision was based on unique knowledge they have, so be it. They will never deal with hurricanes, and I will never deal with temperatures below 32 degrees, or a city that is 1/3 vacant homes.

If they weren’t wearing it because they assumed it was an empty and unattached 150 square foot garage, and not a box alarm with victims trapped, they made a mistake.

Oh you short sighted folks.!!!

In these tough economic times these guys are just assisting the shrinking FD budget.

It cost money to use/refill/maintain all those SCBAs.!!!

Not to mention that once the health issues drop these “pros”
from the ranks the FD can save even more money by not filling the vacant
positions immediately, if ever.

Maybe they should form a Union which would lookout for their well-being and longevity
by demanding protective SOPs that would insure the continuation of fully staffed companies
with healthy teammates.

Oh, my God. Look at those guys acting like firemen. Who didn’t know that would get a lot of panties in a bunch.

It’s Detroit for pete’s sake. That’s where Axle Foley is from and the Lions and American cars and other stuff. It’s Detroit for Pete’s sake and if you are going to cry about a pack on a glorified shed fire you should drive to Detroit in a Japanese car and yell obscenities out of the window. For pete’s sake-

to DC Firefighter. dont cry when you start spitting up your lungs. use your ppe

You macho guys are all correct, they work in the big city and I can’t hold their flash hoods. (And apparently neither are they, since none of them are wearing one.) But I’ll still be the one called on to write note cards for the eulogy and call them brave and honorable when they die at 53 from throat cancer, lung cancer, brain cancer and a hundred other types of cancer caused by the crap they’re breathing in. I can’t hold their hood, but I’ll be the one who has to haul their young corpse into and out of the church and over to the burial plot. I can’t hold their hood, but I’ll be the one who has to hold the flag while it’s folded and then present it to their widow and kids. I can’t hold their hood, but I can hold the hat for the collection to help their wives and kids pay the mortgage or buy Christmas presents when they’re dead.

So yeah Jimmy, maybe I can’t hold their hood. But it’s only because my hands are full holding other stuff because someone else didn’t think it was necessary to put on an scba either.

I’m going to go ahead and mention again, these guys probably are on a return trip to their house, from another fire. How many ems runs do you take in, in one 24? These brothers are taking in 3000 runs a year, no ems. Last April Firehouse Magazine put together a nice article about detroit, look for it. The average for 2007, came out to roughly 23 working fires a day. And of course, if you ask anyone writing on here if given the same fire, they would wear their pack, and all their gear. But nobody is running 5 to 8 workers a day besides probably these guys. And not for nothing, if some of you got this much crap to talk about how they do it, take a trip to Detroit, go to any firehouse and tell them how to do it. Then let us know. As always, relax, do your own thing and stay safe.

Mad Dog says it best. The men (and women?) of the Detroit F.D. just don’t have the ability to treat this fire like a working dwelling fire, where they will need their SCBA. Because that fire was probebly 5 minutes before this garage and their next one is probebly 5 minutes after. That garage fire would be the “war story” of the year for most of you who have the audacity to question the tactics of these veterans. There are not many F.D.’s out there that come anywhere near the work Detroit does. If you are not one of them, shut the hell up.

Geez. I thought they did a pretty good job. They stayed away from the crap, stayed alert – did you see the nozzleman spraying the driveway, probably washing down gasoline. There were several guys doing 360′s to check on conditions, there were two hoselines going. As far as SCBA’s, I would not have required my guys to be on air unless they were ordered into the garage. Overhauling this little garage is the most hazardous time for collapse, inhalation, snagging on debris, etc. We didn’t see video of that, so no judgement on it.

I think the DFD guys did a hell of a job. They probably forgot about it as soon as the rig was pulling away. The DFD guys work for their pay. No doubt. But I doubt they would say this was anything but a pain on the ass fire. Still, they were diligent, thorough and efficient.

There’s no reason to call names, here, brothers. It just makes you look small. If your not, act like it.

Yes, the fire got put out. No, they did not wear the appropriate PPE. I for one can’t understand why there is controversy here.
I personally do not care how many fires Detroit has- if, as some here have suggested earlier in this thread, they were returning from another incident, pure supposition by those posters by the way, then without working SCBA’s they should not have been in service. We won’t even get into the CO exposure that those brothers just experienced. If DFD is sending them out poorly equipped or unequipped then I would think that Local 344 is not looking out for its people well enough.
We won’t discuss the probability that every garage in that neighborhood and any other in the US has untold amounts of pesticides and chemicals. Yes it’s a wood frame garage or shed.. but what’s in it?
Want to have an eye opener? Go to the international website http://www.iaff.org and watch some of the video from the plenary sessions at the Redmond Symposium a couple months ago. New science is demonstrating the long term and deadly effects of cumulative CO exposure as related to cardiac events and dehydration. Yes the guys stayed out of the smoke.. but not all the bad stuff is in the smoke.. some of that stuff is heavier that air!
Some here have called the DFD “real firemen” and chastised others for voicing safety concerns regarding the actions and lack of SCBA use on this fire. I suppose following that logic I should not bother with my bunker pants since “real firemen” like my grandfather used to just wear cotton pants and knee boots along with a canvas coat. Of course at this point he is dying of COPD.. but hey why split hairs?
Brother Billy Goldfeder has always been a vocal supporter of using PPE. With my 15 years on I agree with him. No bit of belongings in someones home, or garage for god’s sake, is worth lung damage, exposure to carcinogens and CO, or losing years of a well earned retirement with my family.
Do your job, be as safe as you can, look out for one another, and go home to your family.
Nick

I donn’t care if you run 5 fires a day, or 5 fires a year. Wear your damn gear. How in the hell are we, as a fire service, supposed to get the equipment we need, if we don’t use it? Why would anyone needlessly put themselves into this black, acrid smoke. The “it’s an exterior fire” attitude sucks. Wake up and wear your gear. We have it for a reason. If you run out of SCBA bottles at a fire, then retrun out of service and go get some more. This is completely unacceptable, no matter what department you work for.

JB

HOW TRUE.!!!

A “family” should have no problem to alert a “member” when they are doing something
stupid/dangerous. Thus all the “family” can learn to improve their performance.

And please remember, It’s even MORE important for the “family” to investigate/review a LODD
as it could prevent additional future LODDs.

Thank goodness there are “brothers” who care enough to say something.!!!!!!

OK OK OK, SO what if a cop doesn’t put his gun on his belt and leaves said gun at the police station. So this cop is driving down the main street in the cop car and there’s some guy pistol whippin an old lady who’s fightin like hell to hold onto her purse with her cash from her SSI check she just cashed at thebank. Ok OK OK so the cop stops and yells, “STop in the name of the law!” The perp stop sbeatin the lady and puts his hands up until he sees the cop doesn’t have a gun. He points his gun at the old lady, shoots her in the head, kills her and he points his gun at the cop, keeping him at bay until he graps the purse and then shoots the cop in the leg and the perp runs off with all the money, never found again.
Do you think the cop would be punished by his superiors? Yes.
So why when a firefighter chooses to not have a piece of life saving equipment on is it just, “Oh we sometimes do and we sometimes don’t” Grow up and be a proffessional each and every time, not just when you feel like doin it right.

I hate you SAFETY SALLY. I love going in fires without donning my SCBA. And your not going to stop me. hahaha

We see seasoned structural firefighters who fall prey to the ho hum another garage fire mentality and think for some odd reason that SCBAs are a nuisance to wear. Time to man up and get with the program, not just Detroit but any macho get the gear dirty, melt your helemt smoke eater soon to die from cancer or emphysema by sucking this toxic smoke into our bronchi and lungs. Reference Buffalo firefighters who inhaled lethal doses of PVC at a dumpster fire a decade ago, or recently another brother firefighter died as a result of an explosion in a dumpster. Let’s not forget that we are purveyors of safety and do no good not using the equipment mandated by SOGs, MOGs, and NFPA standards and purchased for their usage and not of choice.

This garage had a good chance of collapse as well…proof in this case that a safety officer as prescribed by NFPA 1521 is non-exostent. This stand alone garage could have pancaked in either direction. I have been on a few and I demand our safety offier establish a collapse zone. Our troops wear their scbas without being told to use them. Thus discipline, and training go a long way! Yep! Perhaps I am Monday morning arm chair quarterbacking but as I see our faux pas on display, there is a call to respond.

THANKS MILKMAN, NEXT TIME UNLOCK THE ALL CAPS BUTTON UNLESS YOU WALK AROUND ALL DAY SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF YOU LUNGS AT EVERYONE YOU TALK TO.

BTW THANKS FOR YOUR RESUME, I AM SURE THAT WE WERE ALL WONDERING WHAT JUSTIFIED YOU TO GET ON HERE AND TELL OTHER PEOPLE (I.E. COMPLETE STRANGERS) WHAT YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE DOING, AND HOW THEY SHOULD BE DOING THEIR JOBS! I GUESS THOSE GUYS IN DETROIT ARE LUCKY TO NOT WORK FOR SUCH A DISCIPLINARIAN AS YOU.

Police your own backyard, tell your own troops how you want them to operate. If you see something that you feel is unsafe or that you wouldn’t do in a photo or video posted on here then take it back to your guys and drill with them on your own departments safety policies. But please stop telling other grown men, who are professionals, from other departments that you clearly do not work for how you think they should be doing their jobs in their departments. I mean after all do you walk up to complete strangers on the street and tell them how they should raise their children, or if you see someone doing a job on the street do you walk up and say ‘man I think you should do you job this way because I said so’. Or better yet how would you take to a total stranger walking up to you and telling you how you should do your job. I am sure that despite the fact that all of you are quick to offer your opinion on what you think others should do, you would not be so receptive to a stranger commenting on your performance.

There is a fine line between using scenarios posted on these types of trade journal websites from departments around the country as learning experiences, and obnoxiously offering your unwanted opinions about others actions on incidents that you were not present for, in departments that you do not work for.

Unless all of you live in glass houses, and are perfect in everything you do, you would be better served by exercising a little humility, and quietly learning from these posted news stories. But since I am sure that all of you hold very high opinions of yourselves, I am willing to be that my suggestions will fall on deaf ears.

Not a sermon, just a thought. Stay Safe, however you operate out there…

In regards to DC Firefighter. Your honor, I would like to present exhibit “A”…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83_l5mOp5i4

… and if needed, exhibit “B”…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m9RPPCmh7o

Oh lord, there’s an exhibit “C” even…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXaQdLv58fo

… and in closing, this completely backs DC Firefighter’s position on why they feel that Detroit Fire is validated in their actions. Anybody that comes from an organization that condones activities such as these and has individuals that actively promote them is disturbing enough to me but it’s their choice and we do need to respect that. If they choose to ignore safety and common sense then we should be happy for the younger members of that organization due to the promotional opportunities that are coming their way. As for the rest of us, we should continue to work safer and smarter and have long and productive careers. We should also be thankful that we will be able to take advantage of the retirement benefits our labor and management personell have negotiated for us. We’ll leave it to departments like “them” to bolster the LODD numbers and continue to put on elaborate firefighter funerals that the rest of us (survivors) will attend. Good luck.

Molly, If DC Firefighter’s comments make him a hypocrite then what are you? My guess is you’re the same thing that you are accusing him of being. A hypocrite. If you read (entirely) what he stated he wasn’t saying that you shouldn’t learn from other departments’ actions, just the contrary, he promoted doing just that from the stories on these types of websites in his post. He simply stated the absolute manner in which people post condemnations of what they see as wrong isn’t justified. It is alright to question what we see, that is how we learn on this job. But many get on here and comment in such a manner that is uncalled for and as you so aptly put ‘add nothing to the discussion’, although I doubt you knew you were describing yourself and your own comments at the time.
And 343Never Forget, you’re also being hypocritical. You screen name honors the Brothers we lost on 9/11, yet you are on here denouncing others for what you see as safety violations. If you examine the events that took place on 9/11 one that is often used as an example is what happens when members abandon the fire services’ method of accountability. Many members lost their lives that tragic day that were not even on duty and reported to the scene on their own. Did you condemn their actions? Probably not, and we shouldn’t dishonor their memories in that fashion. Do you really think that FDNY operates drastically differently from other busy urban city fire departments? FDNY does things that we would never do in DC, do we call them out on it? No, they simply fight fire differently than we do, and what works for them doesn’t work for us, they simply use different tactics. Furthermore, you go on to speak of LODD and funerals as if these departments single handedly maintain the number of firefighter fatalities due to what you see as negligent actions. This is an ignorant statement and one that has no place in these types of discussions. You talk of learning, yet you promote this type of bashing against what are brother firefighters almost as if you are telling them that they will die and you’ll be there to smile and salute their coffins at their funerals. Well if that is the type of fella that you are, I will give you a pass and if I should happen to die in the line of duty because of my actions or the unforeseen events that often take place on a fire ground you don’t have to come pay your respects to me, because I do not want your kind at my last call.
Learning on this job never stops and we should use these opportunities to continue our education so we can minimize the likelihood of bad things happening to us on our fire grounds. But we all operate differently; we should be respectful of our differences and learn in a positive manner. New York does things differently from LA, who does it different from Boston, who does it different from San Fran, who does it different from Chicago, and yes who does it different from DC, etc., etc., etc. You get my point? No one is going to change anyone’s operational thoughts based on a web blog; all people end up doing is showing what type of person they really are. It is good to ask questions, comment on tactics, and we can make a difference in our own department when we bring these incidents up and discuss them as drill topics.

Wow… Just watched 343′s video link of DC E10 returning to quarters. Was that for real? If so, that Company Officer should be fired (and banned from the Fire Service)! Wow.