The Vigilant Hose Company, just four doors down from the fire, has a slideshow of early pictures and ones taken throughout the day. Click the image above.
Click here for numerous videos and our earlier coverage of the Emmitsburg fire
Excerpt from an AP article:
A resident of a historic building in Emmitsburg is accused of setting fire to his apartment while trying to commit suicide.
The state fire marshal’s office says the fire early Saturday at the 19th-century building on East Main Street caused $1 million in damage. The building is a former hotel that was converted into 17 apartment units.
Forty-three-year-old John Bushman has been charged with arson and malicious burning. Fire marshals say Bushman was detained after an investigation revealed he had threatened to burn the building down, and he was charged late Saturday after he revealed to investigators that he set the fire.
Earlier:
Our friend Wayne Powell, who is now in “retired” status with Vigilant Hose Company of Emmitsburg, has provided a much more detailed account than we had previously of the fire early Saturday morning that destroyed a landmark building in the heart of town. Here are excerpts from Wayne’s account:
Fire units were alerted at 0559 hours to a reported building fire with people trapped in an apartment building on the Square (southeast corner) above a popular Pizza Restaurant known as Stavro’s and which many from around the country and beyond have visited. Being Easter Weekend, all NETC classes had ended yesterday. For those who admire good “truck work” – in the photos you’ll note multiple ground ladders were placed around the building in addition to the 5 aerials which were quickly summoned to the scene where 4 were actively used.
President Frank Davis of Vigilant Hose Company (the community’s all volunteer fire department // which is located 4 doors west of the fire building) was out back of the fire station, while it was still dark out, cleaning up items from a major 2-day fund-raiser, VHC’s annual Easter Seafood Bonanza, when his pager alerted for the fire – he looked up at the rear portion of the building (easily seen from the fire station’s rear parking lot) and nothing was obvious. Upon reaching the station’s front overhead doors he could see the glow reflecting on windows across the street plus smoke started coming into the firehouse as the overhead doors were going up. He quickly radioed in that he had fire showing (designated the sides, etc.) and immediately requested that a 2nd alarm be transmitted.
The fully occupied 145-year old unsprinklered (pre-existing) building had fire extending out windows on the South Seton Avenue side (Side D) and as apparatus was arriving fire began extending out the front (Side A) meaning that the main interior stairwell had already become compromised as it was heavily involved in fire. Fortunately, there were no deaths and only one injury (a civilian with a cut to the hand) and equally amazing was that the structure did not collapse during the fire as had been potentially feared by generations of area firefighters. As can be seen in the photos heavy fire conditions were present as fire personnel arrived.
The circa 1865 fire building, whose construction was completed at the end of the Great Civil War, sits at the corner of East Main Street (MD Route 140) and South Seton Avenue (the road that passes in front of NETC). The “Old Hotel on the Square” as it commonly known today went by various names over the years – Eagle Hotel, Slagle Hotel and Western Maryland Hotel – and had always been of special concern to firefighters as well as state and local fire marshals for decades due to limited egress and its construction. Used in the modern era for rental apartments, all or nearly all of those displaced today reportedly had no insurance.
Although fought via aggressive interior firefighting efforts, operations were shifted from offensive to defensive given the age of the building and the numerous structural renovations that have occurred over the years. Authorities from the Frederick County Sheriffs Office (trained in fire investigations) plus fire investigators from the Frederick County Department of Fire and Rescue Services and the Maryland State Fire Marshal’s Office worked together to determine the actual cause of the fire and further interactions. The building was condemned by building inspectors with further review by structural inspectors planned to determine structure stability. A civilian living in the building is credited with saving lives by her actions of quickly alerting residents.
Also on STATter911 …
- Raw video: House fire in South Whitehall, Pennsylvania. It’s an address firefighters are familiar with. – March 3, 2012
- Pre-arrival video, audio & mayday: Three-alarm townhouse fire in Brandywine Hundred, Delaware. Structural collapse. – December 19, 2011
- Collapse videos: Century old Barnes Hotel fire in Paulding, Ohio. – January 18, 2012
- UPDATE – Must see video plus fireground audio: Wall collapses on firefighters at Momper Insulation Company in Fort Wayne, Indiana. – October 30, 2011
Comments
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Thank god it wasnt the Ott House….might have never gone back to NFA if it had burned down…lol. Looks like a good job by the Vigilant Hose Company, and others.
The only thing that I can see that they were ‘Vigilant’ about was making sure that no windows got broken throughout the night while the fire ran unchecked and unchallenged. From the start of the slide show there is no indication of hand lines operating inside the second floor apartment. Eventually, a couple of small hand lines are seen applying 45 degree fog streams from the sidewalk across the street from side ‘D’. The weak fog is eaten up by the heavy fire as it auto exposes to the floor above.
Photos from the next morning show a hero firefighter starting to take out windows with a pike pole (from the exterior of course,considering the structural stability of the building is probably in question this many hours after the fire was permitted to do its thing). Unfortunately this is being done after the building has been destroyed by hours of unchecked fire running through it followed by thousands of gallons per minute of water being poured through the holes that eventually burned through the roof after the lower floor fire became an upper floor and attic fire.
This is another reminder that just because the community that you live in has lots of shiny fire apparatus and all the latest expensive gimmicks and folks who dress up like firefighters … it doesn’t mean that you actually have even a decent level (if any) of fire protection.
AGREED! A serious lack of firemen but lots of t-shirts and nice fire trucks. Would you expect anything less?
The comments seem to be focused upon Strategy in deployment of
Truck Operations. Looking at the photos it speaks volumes that good Aerial Placement and Master Stream Devices were in place. The comment about just because Local Fire Stations have Nice well designed Apparatus, doesnot mean the Taxpayers have a decent level of Fire Protection. That statement is out of Line
and totally uncalled for. The Vigilent Fire Station has a Long
History within Frederick County as a well organized Fire Department. Obviously these comments reflect the on going Negative Attitudes against Volunteers. This ignorant vile mentality shows just how much the IAFF is concerned. One can only wondeer if the individual who submitted these comments,
realizes that these words of contempt speaks out against the Frederick Taxpayers? The IAFF believes that Volunteers are an obstacle in gaining the overall achievements of the IAFF. This is simply not true. The criticism against Volunteers and their Training/Professional overall attitudes/performance, those individuals (IAFF) should keep in mind that a Team of Volunteers just may pull them out of a Burning Structure. This same attitude/mentality is applied for Volunteers who criticize
Career Personnel. If everyone Career/Volunteer would take a step back and concentrate their thoughts on improving each individuals’ Performance, understanding the Dreaded May Day May Day call can occur to anyone. The Training for both Career/Volunteer is there ie;Frederick County Training Academy, MFRI, and The National Fire Academy offers Training in various disciplines. Fire Fighter Safety/Everyone Goes Home. The Actual Result can/must be “ACCOUNTABILITY” for both Career/Volunteers.
Thank You
A good job, not trying to sound like a Monday morning quarterback but how can you say good job when from the pictures beginning to end went from what looks to be an apartment off on the 2nd floor of a 3 ½ story building side A and 4 ½ in the rear to the roof burning off? By what I see in the pictures you have fire showing on the 2nd floor sides A, and D with a report of people trapped, then in the next few pictures you have a aerial platform shooting water into the widows with another group of so called fireman shooting water into the windows on side D. So unless other issues went on that the pictures don’t show I can’t see how this was a good job.
Fires go out and property is saved by aggressive interior firefighting, and that’s what firefighting needs to get back to. This crap of SAFETY THINK OF YOURSELF FIRST, WEAR YOUR VEST, EXTERIOR ATTACK NO ONE IS INSIDE, and LET’S TALK THIS FIRE OUT is straight up BULL S!#T. What happen to Firefighting being about protecting LIFE, PROPERTY, and ENVIRONMENT? It’s really this simple the volunteer or career application said Firefighter on it, so what do you expect to do when it’s time to go to work? Nobody ever said this was a safe perfusion. So instead of continuing to see pictures like these Firefighting needs to get back to what it was BUCKLE UP YOUR GEAR, DO A BALL CHECK AND GO PUT THE DAMN FIRE OUT!!
What is the status of Stavros?
Lots can be said about this fire. Great Truck placement was a big factor that it didn’t spread. You have to remember that most if not all were volunteers and yes they do a great job. Life wasn’t a problem as everyone got out. As old and cut up as this builing was, a defensive attack was made. Looking photos than from the C side shows members taking it up the rear steps and also it in from an aerial raised.
I can’t say why you don’t see lines in side, I can’t say why you don’t see lines in the front. I can’t say, because like the most you I was at home asleep and didn’t know about the fire until 10 AM.
All you so call side walk quaterbacks, step back take a deep breath and look at this incident again.
From all aspects the fire began on the second floor of the old hotel, now apartrments not the pizza place and quickly spread and got to the roof. I would bet my pension that this is a typical baloon construction and if you know about that, fire runs quick once it gets in the wall.
Enough said.
Thaddius, I guess you’re an expert of the fire service, another one of those guys that knows everything. Have you ever been to Emmitsburg?
You can be a great teacher of how to be safe and be a great instructor in an academy class but that dosent mean you can put a fire out. Basic tactics say the first couple lines go to the fire the next couple go to the attic even your firefighter I’s should know that. I dont know the staffing situation out there but a good quick interior attack and lines to the attic should have been able to handle this fire.
By the way Im not IAFF either Im a volunteer to which ever idiot that tried to turn this into an career vs. volunteer issue.
GI Joe says, “Thaddius, I guess you’re an expert of the fire service, another one of those guys that knows everything. Have you ever been to Emmitsburg?”
Yes GI Joe, as a matter of fact, I attended several programs there. No I’m not an ‘expert’ on firefighting and neither is anyone else. Firefighting presents new challenges on a daily basis. Do I have enough experience to validate my commenting on firefighting operations? YUP! I spent 21 years as a career firefighter in a very busy metropolitan fire department as well as 16 years in a rural volunteer fire department serving in every rank including fire chief and commissioner. I was a state certified fire instructor.
I’m not one for sugar coating things. When firefighters show that they have good working knowledge of their equipment as well as ‘bread and butter’ firefighting I am the first one to heap praise upon them. Sadly, this website shows clearly nearly everyday that there are far too many fire departments that are not prepared to do what needs to be done when called to a serious structure fire in an occupied dwelling.
If your feelings are hurt … so what. Firefighting is not for the faint of heart … when you put on bunker gear you should know waht you are doing and be willing to do what needs to be done to get the job done … and done properly. All fires go out eventually, unfortunately, many seem to go out when they run out of fuel rather than due to the actions of the responsible fire department.
I promise you the guy on the dormer was not from the VHC. They were mostly on side A as their approach was from that direction. Surrounding stations attacked from opposite sides. I whole-heartedly agree with the views below.
My two cents worth. I was there from the second arriving company. There were several lines inside the building and an aggressive attack was initiated. However, the fire had been set and was well advanced throughout the second and into the third floor. It was then decided to go to a defensive to try and knock the fire with the tower and other larger devices. Second arriving truck company from 9 miles away ventilated the roof and it had already spread up to the attic at that point. Thaddius almighty you would not even had put that fire out as great as you think you are. Sorry I don’t mind hurting your feelings either. By the way I am a 20 year career and 30 year volunteer. Seen many more fires from larger staffed departments turn out the same way (a new parking lot).
That building has been preplanned and replanned for years. Any local knows the condition that building was in before the fire may be only slightly better than after the fire. Holes in the walls, holes in the floors and an army of critters living in the walls make it a disaster waiting to happen. That’s why no locals ever frequented Starvos. VHC had a plan in mind before that call ever came in, and they implemanted that plan to perfection- save the rest of the square, don’t lose any firemen.
Never saw a drop of water come out any window, never saw any window taken on the fire floor. Say what you want but whether or not the building is saved, the basics must always be followed. Didn’t see any of the basics happening. And again, if you are going to go defensive, it’s not done using little hand lines applying 45 degree patterns from across the street or a tower ladder dumping water through a hole that burned through the roof. Sure, no matter what department responded, the fire may have extended, but looking at the lack of basic firefighting being done at this incident, we’ll never know if the fire could have been stopped.
By the way, if there really were two hand lines attempting to move into the fire apartment in the early stages of the incident, were they unsuccessful because they were using the little 45 degree fog lines that we see being used as ‘master streams’ later in the video?
We didnt lose any fireman, is the regular cop out for letting a building burn to the ground. Any time there is something that isnt done or we lose something we shouldnt, we always put the coverall over it. I never want to the see the death of a brother or sister but we have got to stop using that saying as a defense for not doing our job. This saying has been abused to cover pis-poor work for the last couple years along with all the safety this and safety that. Folks read your helmet this job comes with an inherent risk to life and health. No matter how much we try to make it safe it wont be. The only way to be truly safe is to do what is becoming the standard, nothing but stay exterior.
I believe that dude was from the best ladder company in Carroll county which would be taneytown. The carroll county bad boys…ok maybe not.
For all you second guessers of the tactics and operations let me give you some first hand information. To start, like the rest of you I will not hide behind my comments. I am Frank Davis the Driver/Operator of the first arriving truck and as you should know pictures don’t always tell the whole story. The first arriving engine crew advanced lines to the second floor and made an initial attack and was conducting a primary search for reported trapped occupants. As you should know by now the fire was arson and had a good start before the first 911 call was made. So it was not a smoldering mattress fire with room and contents. The fire had already advanced to the 3rd floor and probably to the attic before our arrival. Our main concern was search and rescue which takes a little time in a building this size. The small handline you saw where protecting exposures on Side D,(I mean Delta) for all you expert critics. This exposure was 20 feet away and is another apartment building twice the size of the fire building. Ventilation did take place within the first few minutes and I have instructed our photographer to make sure he doesn’t miss those shots for you next time.
Mr. Fitzhume and Back Step sure would like to know what Departments you work for, because it sounds like you have that “perfect department” that I always knew existed but just haven’t been able to find. I sure would like to take some time to observe your operations in person and see you in action. I’m sure as good as you sound Hollywood would probably like to make a series about you. You do know that stuff you see on TV isn’t real don’t you? I usally don’t take the time to respond to experts like you but you both are so wrong on this one and what we stress to our people. We did what we had to do to make sure all occupants were out of the building, which I believe is still our first priority. We did an aggressive attack but had to back out to do a blitz with a master stream because of the heavy fire volume on sides A & D. Please use some of your building construction knowledge and remember the challenges of balloon frame construction. Unfortunately we were operating for the first 15 minutes or so with 2 engines and a truck so some tasks didn’t take place as quickly as in your metropolitian department where your next engine is only a few blocks away. Most importantly we do look out for the safety of our people.
As I read these posts I am sure the staff at the NFFF never have to worry about not having a job until people like you lose that mindset that you are God! The firefighters in Emmitsburg are willing to check their balls and put their lives on the line when the situation warrants, but not every call is worth dying for.
Are there some tactics that we would probably do differently, sure would, but there are not too many working incidents that this isn’t the case. Of course unless you are that “perfect department”.
Let’s make this fight fair, Fitzhume, Backstep and all the rest of you critics please let us know the identity of your departments so we can check out your departments and their flawless operations.
LET’S SEE WHO WANTS TO CHECK THEIR BALLS NOW!
Stavros rocks! I hope it was salvaged.
Frank Davis says, “Unfortunately we were operating for the first 15 minutes or so with 2 engines and a truck so some tasks didn’t take place as quickly as in your metropolitian department where your next engine is only a few blocks away. Most importantly we do look out for the safety of our people.”
If your department is limited to a 2 engine and one ladder response, then you must have an automatic mutual aid response to provide the balance of a first alarm assignment for all reported structure fires (as did the volunteer department that I belonged to which protected a rural, un-hydranted district of 45 square miles). When a call is received reporting a structure fire, the automatic aid should be dispatched to the incident simultaneously with your agency. Failure to do so endangers the occupants of the fire building as well as your firefighters should they choose to enter the structure. All departments should be well aware of what they are capable of handling prior to the incident actually occurring. Remember, fail to plan … plan to fail.
I don’t need to know who you are and you don’t need to know who I am. Facts are facts … firefighting basics are the same no matter where you are. Again, if you choose not to conduct a proper interior attack (for whatever reason) then you should at least be proficient in mounting a defensive (surround and drown) operation. You mention a blitz attack. I believe a blitz attack is conducted immediately upon arrival when the F.D. is confronted by a heavy fire condition and needs to knock down the heavy volume of fire with a master stream prior to achieving total extinguishment with hand lines. Again, that did not seem to be depicted in any videos or stills of this fire. I’m glad that none of your members were injured, I’m sorry that your pride is hurt, but the pictures don’t back up your statements.
Frank Davis says, “Please use some of your building construction knowledge and remember the challenges of balloon frame construction.”
I’m thoroughly familiar with firefighting in balloon frame construction as both the career and volunteer departments that I worked at had many such structures. Can every one be saved, not if they are too far gone upon arrival. However, many can be but it’s necessary to stretch the size and number of hose lines commesurate with fire conditions and get a line onto each level along with firefighters equipped to ventilate and open up voids to expose spreading fire. Certainly it’s a challenge, but it’s part of the job. I’m all for keeping firefighters safe, but firefighting is inherently dangerous even when it’s done correctly. It’s not for the faint of heart.
I’m pleased to see that there are others who visit this site who share my concerns regarding the large amount of videos that depict improper firefighting operations. Videos depecting improper firefighting activities should be used as learning tools just as should NIOSH LODD investigative reports. The fire service needs to get its head out of the sand and acknowledge when things are less than they should be. I’d rather see hurt feelings than avoidable tragedies and unnecessary property loss. The fire service as a whole needs a lot of training on the basics. Training officers should seek out folks from fire departments that do a high volume of fire duty and do it well and use them as a training resource.
Frank Davis says, “The small hand line you saw where protecting exposures on Side D,(I mean Delta) for all you expert critics. This exposure was 20 feet away and is another apartment building twice the size of the fire building.” Standing across the street and directing a weak, 45 degree fog spray at heavy venting fire is not proper or adequate exposure protection. Either operate a 2.5 (or preferably a master stream) line into the venting fire (If no one is inside the structure and in danger of having fire pushed at them) or direct a 2.5″ or larger stream onto the endangered exposure and continue to soak it.
Mr. Davis, I wish you and your associates well.
Mr. Fitzhume,
I’m not going to become your pen-pal becasue I can see your opinion is the only one that matters. Also I won’t to speak to a coward that has to hide behind a closed door. Just as you, firefighting is how I make a living so this wasn’t my first rodeo either.
In closing you really should look closer at the pictures becasue there are lines going in Side A and the line on Side D is a 2 1/2. These are just a few of the false statements you have made.
Sure would like to meet you in person to see if you really can walk on water. I guess with yesterday being Easter there is always a chance!
OK Already, Enough said about criticism of how,why,whynot,when,where,who the Fire Ground Tactics were employed. No one I don’t care who it is has the right to speak vile words of contempt against Firefighting Strategy. Yes there probably could/should have been a different approach in Deployment of Operational Personnel, Heavy Stream Devices and any Decisions deemed necessary. The ICS was obviously in place
the Incident Commander knew the Building was Vacant and could reasonably presume Fire/Fire Spread was inside at some level
Building Integrity Compromised. The sarcasim of speaking how good someone is (Alledgedly) and/or how wrong Tactics were because of Personnel doing what their Training gave them. There is something to remember each and everyone in the Fire and EMS Service has a Basic Body of Knowledge in Understanding
what is before them on the scene. Yes I as everyone else is aware the NFA is Designed to incorporate Executive level management for all to aspire. Yes there is the frederick County training Facility. and yes there is MFRI the State
Organized Training Facility. The individuals who praise themselves as being knowledgeable and knowing how to put out a Fire, regardless of what,where their Career Experience may be,
should take a step back and ask themselves, was any Life Lost, Injured, Civilian,Firefighter. I am of the belief there will be a Critique/After Action Report. The Managing/decisions made within the ICS will be brought to light, on How to improve Fire Ground Efficiency. The actual Learning/realizing how to improve individual/TEAM Effectiveness will come in actual IN SERVICE TRAINING. The ACCOUNTABILITY is the same for Career/Volunteer. NFFF// “FIREFIGHTER SAFETY EVERYONE GOES HOME” Welcome to the 21st Century Fire and EMS Service.
PUBLIC SERVANTS//EVERYONE.
Have a Nice Day
From what you can see on the photos, the only argument that makes sense in defense of the operations here is that this building was not considered safe to begin with, so the initial interior ops were for removal of occupants only.
Beyond that, I have lots of questions.
* Did the interior attack actually put water on the fire? It does not appear so – or maybe the water flow was insufficient (maybe the 2 1/2 should have gone interior?)
* While the interior attack was in progress, why wasn’t the building vented? You can see a lot of windows still intact late into the fire.
* It appears that the bulk of the fire was knocked down after the blitz attack. Did crews go back inside after that time? And if so, again I ask where was the ventilation?
* Why did it take so long to get adequate resources to the fire? 2 and 1 for 15 minutes is a long time on a job like this.
No company is perfect, but good companies learn lessons from every job. I hope you guys will do an honest critique of this job to determine how things might have been done better.
Give em hell Frank, I’m with you. Maybe if he was there he would have seen the operations a little different. Of course maybe being firefighter almighty, he could have used his hot air and blew the fire out. Thaddius, there was automatic mutual aide, we were third due and second arriving from 8 miles away with 2 engines and heavy squad and 12 FFs and not scared to do some work.
Mike Duble
Chief Davis, apparently your first hand account doesn’t hold up to a few out of sequence videos, and snap-shot photos. If he wanted to understand the situation, he would have paid attention when you stated in the article that you immediatly requested a 2nd alarm. Plan to fail… People who weren’t there don’t know. And people who don’t know that building, won’t understand fully.
Dave, Frank … pat each other on the back and raise a glass as clearly you both see this incident as being a success because no firefighters were injured. I am truly glad that no one was injured also, but that should not be the only way we measure success or failure at a fire scene.
Although you and a couple of your buddies have made comments about my thinking that I can ‘walk on water’, etc. I never implied or made any such claim. I simply stated that there appear to be many tasks that were not performed at all or not performed correctly. I do believe that Dave does a great service for firefighters by posting photos and videos of fire incidents regardless of whether they depict proper or improper operations. But not wanting firefighters to comment unless their comments are heaping praise serves no good purpose. And Mike Duble, I’m glad that you “were not scared to do some work”.
I’m thankful, as a resident of Emmitsburg, that we have such good and brave people willing to step in harms way at a moment’s notice. They did, they were successful.
Here’s a thought: the culture in the fire service is really changing, and SAFETY, is a good word! I was a first-hand witness of the apparatus as they pulled out of town, over several hours, one after another (THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE), I’d bet 50% of those I could clearly see from not so good perspective (second story of residence), were wearing seat belts (I live close enough to the scene that others were perhaps just clicking-up). Professional.
After all that has been said and done this is what I have got to say. If you were not on the incident, then you have no right to stand so strongly behind your criticism! You absolutely can not judge the entire incident by a handful of pictures and a few videos lasting the short amount of time they did in comparison to how long the incident was! I was on the second arriving truck, and if you feel the need to criticize the way we operate in our own area, please by all means feel free to travel this way ‘and show us how its done’! I would LOVE to learn how to fight fire in the perfect little world that you all live in. And as far as I am concerned, Career is not better than Volunteer and Volunteer is not better than Career! We are all one. In the public’s eyes, they don’t know the difference, and they probably really don’t care, as long as someone is there when they need us. And that is what we are all about! If you don’t agree with that, then you are in this line of work for all the wrong reasons, and honestly don’t have a right to be in this line of work. The Career rely on the Volunteer and the Volunteer rely on the Career in this area. And we all work amazing together, the way mutual aid should work!
From someone who was on the scene, I would like to say good job to the rest of you who were there! Keep up the good work!
With that said, Just remember, Don’t quarterback the game you’re not at. Or in this case, weren’t at!
I am amazed there were no civilian fatalites! You can’t arm chair quarter back based on the limited information you have. I am sure if mistakes were made the incident commander is well aware of those mistakes or they will come out is a post incident analysis. My advice is if you were not there keep your critism to your self.
To: Thaddius The Great!
Man, I hope you are retired brother. I think you take yourself way to serious and need a good vacation. Why don’t you tell us all what Dept. you are or were with? Google has lots of info for us all to check you out. But that would be as unfair for us to do as what you are doing here. Im sure your Dept. has lots of fine individuals on it, Im just just not sure you are one of them. Your attitude is the reason so many of our brothers and sisters have died trying to save STUFF. It all just stuff, unless there is a life to be saved I believe the attitude of kicking the door and charging into an OLD building risking multiple lives to save a toaster needs to change.
I like you, also have 30 years in so don’t start on me about the size of my balls. We all have had close calls where we dodged a bullet to save some ones STUFF. I have been lucky on more than one occasion when the situation changed quickly, or something we did not see or expect to happen, happened. You can not train for everything, and sometimes we get ourselves killed when everything was done right. Most Firefighters who have been around the block more than once has been in a situation like this and thought, what the hell are we doing in here? Most will agree with me, at least the honest ones will.
Steve in Calif.
Thaddius, congrats on becoming the ressurection of Jesus Christ to this fire service of ours. No, I wasnt there. Yes, I watched the videos and saw the pics. Are there things that were done that I would/wouldnt do, yes. But I wasnt there and dont see why floks are roasting those that were there over insignifigant decisions. I am not affiliated with Frederick Co. DFRS or Vigilant Hose Co. If there would have been a fire fighter fatailty, most of these comments would have been cursing the command officers for sending people into a 150+ year old multi-renovated building that was inentionally set. By watching a few videos and pics, can you really get a grasp of how things were really going on the inside or the fire ground as a whole? Remember a picture takes a half second of an even, so who knows what happneded after that? People are criticizing videos for showing up on the internet, but yet they critize what they see off of the, hypocritical perhaps? Frank Davis was there, knows what happened and I would assume knows the plans/history for that building. I would listen to what he has to say on here over anyone else. You get a better view of things going on at the turn table with a radio by your side versus watching 5 minutes of a civilian video.
Oh and have a nice day!
Hey bozos,
No one is dead, the building is still standing and vigilant did a great job handling the situation. This comes from a firefighter of 20 years. You had to be at the scene to assess the situation at hand. Be forever vigilant.
I don’t want to be a fly in the ointment here, but Thaddius is very correct with many of his comments.
While not passing judgment on the on scene crews courage, effort, or love of the fire service – I do find fault with the many disturbing photos.
Why would command allow firefighters to get on the roof that late in the incident with the roof failing?
The fact is that a building was destroyed, it might have been saved, and the facts stated by the on scene crews are not shown here. If these pictures are not accurate, post some that back up your claims. Don’t be upset that firemen on the internet are looking at a small town volunteer department fail, and are frustrated that all of our names can be tied to your incident.
Thadius stand strong the reaction you are getting proves that you have hit a nerve. All the man has done is give a honest critique and put an honest experienced opinion on the work done. Rather than take a step back and see if any of his points have any validity everyone is jumping up and down with their feelings hurt because it was pointed out that this was not a perfect operation.
There is always room to improve and the best way to do that is to learn from your previous mistakes. If you are not willing to learn than you have no business being in the business. Safety may be the future but too many people are using that as an excuse to not do the hard grunt work required to put fires out. Not a sermon just a thought.
Confused,
you make some good points and I whole heatedly agree with you there is room to improve and the best way is to learn from your previous mistakes, thats my point exactly. We should be learning from our mistakes of killing our people in buildings that are old, have been pre planed as dangerous, especially under heavy fire conditions, are unoccupied, and yet we find ourselves inside trying to save Uncle Henry’s lazy boy recliner. Does this actually make sense to some of you?
Maybe I’m living under a rock out here, this is the first time I have heard of Fire Depts. using the excuse of “no one got hurt” as a cover up to poor fire grounds ops. As we all know it’s Life, Environment, and Property in that order. My question is, Where does the life of the Firefighter fall into this flow chart?
Ok, enough is enough.I am almost disgusted by reading some of these posts. I know I will probably get slammed for my comments, but no worries I’m a big boy. First, the fire service I grew up in and I mean that litterally, used to be a brotherhood. Volunteer, carreer or combination.
The idea of aggressive interior attact on buildings when civilian lives our not in danger is in part what kills on average 100 brothers and sisters each year. Look into the faces of those left behind each October and you may rethink some of those aggressive approaches. “Firefighting is inherently dangerous”, you are correct, but there is no need to make it any more dangerous than we have to.
All things are impermanant, buildings included. It seems to me that the Vigilant FD, knew the building well, had a preplan and utilized it.We can debate tactics for months, but at the end of the day no civilian lives were lost and EVERYONE WENT HOME.
Brothers and sisters we have to put aside egos and this insane idea that we have to risk our lives for 100 year old or even brand new buildings that are built to burn. We have a duty to our families and the citizens we protect to be able to continue to love and provide for our families number one and to not put undo strain on communities by becoming a statistic for a building that will some day be torn down or be returned to the dirt it was built on.
Be safe, be smart, but most of all be the brotherhood that we all say we are.
My two cents.
We are to quick to risk absolutely nothing under the “safety of our own” banner. Yes the building was old but through the slide show it looks as if it was written off rather quickly. It was written that it was unoccupied but there were apartments that sound like they were occupied and a business on the first floor. Anyway I digress, its life, property then the environment. Until you lose everything you have in a fire you can not understand the feelings of watching all your possessions burn. The comment of “they have insurance for a reason” is such a callous statement for a profession that is trying to present a softer image. How do you think it looks to have 50 firefighters standing in a street watching the joint burn to an ordinary citizen. Our job is to try to save what little we can and at this point we risk absolutely nothing on regular basis because of “our safety”. The life of my brothers and sisters is paramount to me but we have gotten into a habit of not trying at all and saying that it was for our safety.
Thaddius & Eddie,
I am a 28 year, 3rd generation firefighter at VHC-Emmitsburg. Yes, we have lots of T-shirts. (Do you want to buy one?) Yes, we have nice shiny firetrucks. (All paid for with hard volunteer work- no tax dollars) Yes, we do many things right. And yes, we even occasionally do things wrong. But, in our 125 year history, we have never “lost” a firefighter because of doing things wrong.
We are home to the National Fire Academy and National Emergency Training Center. Every time we turn a wheel, we are watched, critiqued, and, believe it or not, even occasionally admired. We are the most visited, most watched, most critiqued, and most imitated fire station in the world. (No? name another) And yes, I said most imitated. Many visitors to our station take home with them, ideas that they saw or heard here.
So yes, Thaddius, we can appreciate your critique. For looking at a 5 minute video from “side C” and a number of still photographs, you sure do know a lot of what transpired that day. You sure know a lot about the building construction/layout, fire load, extension, exposures, operations, and the department abilities.
I invite you to visit our station. Ride with us (provided, of course, you have the proper required training). We may even make you “Chief” for the day. It would be great if you could share your tremendous amount of knowledge. I know our department will be better for it and perhaps our fire losses can be eliminated for good.
Just FYI…actual fire damage was limited to the 2nd & 3rd floor & roof…1st floor and basement (Stavros Pizza) sustained mostly water damage…as i write this, renovation has already begun.
Respectfully,
Palman
Thaddius and the other Fire Gods above…no incidents are ever perfect..NONE! Everyone of us in the fire service have different stratigies and tactics that we may have implemented. NUFF SAID…In the mean time I will be waiting for your new book “Firefighting for Dumbies” to hit the shelves at out local Barnes and Noble. Frank I will pick-up your copy for you, maybe they will sign our copies? Bob Rosensteel, Jr. Past Chief of the Vigilant Hose Company (and basket operator of Tower6 at this call.)
Thaddius. I am apid 22 years and Vol. 29years. It seems as though you are what we call a closet fireman. Don’t hide behind you’re computer and downgrade everyone. You must be of low self esteem and a very unhappy person. Tell us where you work and we will check you’re depts. history and of course you’re history.It is plain you are a big windbag full of stupidity but it is expected from you’re kind that can judge a whole fireground from a pic. By the way a pic is a picture. You also need to stay off this board and let the real firemen post here. You need rookie 101 if you have passed being a jr. fireman. I pity the people who you work with but I think you are an imposter and you are really a labor. So long!!!
Whatever your opinion is on the tactics, no firefighter’s name will be put on a plaque at the National Fallen Firefighter’s Memorial; nor were there any civilian’s name in the obituaries due to this fire!! All firefighter’s went home…all civilians lived! Good job VHC!
I learned a long time ago to never fight someone else’s fire for them, as you don’t really know the entire story unless you were there. Looks like the fire went out and nobody got hurt: sounds like a success story to me.