Click here to watch story from KOMU-TV
A dispute in Holts Summit, Missouri where the police and fire departments disagree over whether a firefighter's personal vehicle can be an emergency vehicle. The issue arose when a New Bloomfield Fire Protection District firefighter was ticketed while responding to a fire on Saturday. The police and fire department's have differing interpretations of state statutes on this issue (here and here).
Volunteer firefighter Matt Ousley said that he was driving responsibly, but taking the liberties an emergency vehicle is authorized to. He admits he was driving 10 mph over the speed limit and passing cars as they were yielding to him. Ousley said because he was using his blue flashing light and siren, his driving was legal.
The Holts Summit Police Department Assistant Chief Bryan Reid disagrees. He said a volunteer firefighter's personal vehicle, even when equipped with appropriate lights and siren, is not an emergency vehicle. "A first responder vehicle is not considered a full emergency vehicle," says Reid, "By statute it is not exempt."
New Bloomfield Assistant Fire Chief Dean Powell said the statute "says right in it, very specifically, it states different things that they can exceed the law. Similar to a police officer when they are responding. They're personal vehicle at that point becomes an emergency vehicle."
Also on STATter911 …
- Truly a great moment in public safety: ‘My dumb-ass assistant chief took it upon himself to discontinue my permit’. Fire commissioner holds his breath until his lights turn blue again. – May 7, 2012
- Must see dash-cam video: Lawsuit after WI police officer chases volunteer firefighter responding to firehouse. FF claims excessive force when gun is pointed at him during traffic stop. – November 4, 2012
- Preempting the preempters: California town cracks down on citizens with signal changing devices. – April 5, 2012
- Firefighter vs police: Arkansas volunteer arrested after meeting off duty cop on the road. Flashing lights & speed are at issue. – May 1, 2012
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Throw out the lights and sirens and you will have no problem obeying what is perceived to be law. Why would you risk anything in your POV? 25 years of responding without warning lights should be proof that it can be done. Don't let your or the PD's ego get in the way of your being a professional model for all responders. If it was a burnin when they called it'll be a burnin when you get there. If not, well, they didn't need you.
But, if you get in an accident without any lights or siren, and the other party involved finds out your were responding to an emergency call, you are hung! It’s a double edge sword and one of the perils of the profession that we have to deal with. I would rather do right by the law and have it to back me than go rogue with nothing and risk it all. You can’t say you won’t have an accident. No one wakes up in the morning and says “I think I will wreck my car today”.
ok, if it's not an "emergency vehicle" why allow them to be equipped lights and with a siren??? We dont have sirens here in Indiana, but just like here, sounds like the cop is just wanting to be a dick….There are certain areas we can and cannot run our blue lights…. even if in our own area…
I do not like the ides of using POV's with lights. If there is an accident, who is going to cover you? My insurance states were you using your auto for business, if so they should cover you. Drive the speed limit and obey all driving laws. Do not give law enforcment a reason cite you. We all need to work togeather. I think there may be an underling problem between Fire and Police. An incdent is not the place to have a pissing contest. Mgt. needs to iron this out and as a Chief Officer this is not the mountaiin I would want to die on.
Not claiming to be a lawyer, but Google is almost as good as sleeping in a Holiday Inn Express.
Having said that, the cops are wrong as long as the chief gave the guy a permit.
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c300-399/3070000175.htm
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c300-399/3040000022.htm
Something tells me there's more to this story however.
J Hunt is right on, not worth wrecking and killin no one going to a call on your own vehicle. Sounds like the FD and the PD there need to have a good ol sit down and work this out without no one getting a ticket, this time.
Lawyers wrote both of the statues so of course they conflict with each other. Members of the Legislative branch in that state along with many other states and of course the US Congress are for the most part lawyers so there is no wonder we cannot get anything done.
sounds like the PD is a HUGE ASS, and doenst understand the job. We are very lucky here in Indiana, the PD and the FD departments work well together. I'm glad to see that the fire chief stood up for you and backs you on this. YOu did nothing wrong. And for those who stated that pov's should not have lights, that your choice, but i run the interstate and major highways, and lights on my POV cover my ASS!!!!
Interesting if I actually follow the links that Dave provides, I wouldn't have to.
Sorry Dave, now I'm the schmuck.
Some schmuck without a blog.
Sure, you can respond without warning lights, it can be done. I'm not saying that in every scenario, you need to run warning lights. I live 5 blocks from the firehouse, and the only time I run them is when I'm on the opposite side of town, during the middle of the day, for a confirmed structure fire, injury accident, or serious medical call. I live in Illinois, where we are not allowed to have Sirens, and our vehicles are not classified as emergency vehicles. I'm a young guy (26), but fairly seasoned. I've been on several high profile incidents and spent several years in the military, so I don't get all amped up like some of the younger guys do, or like I used to. POV or not, Emergency Vehicle or not, Small town or big city, you can't drive around like you own the street. In this world of lawsuits and dime a dozen lawyers, regardless of who was in the right, responding to a call, you hit someone and hurt or kill them – you will pay, and probably will end up in jail.
Steve, I read this and thought I wrote it. I too am 26y/o and prior service military. I have been doing the firefighting thing for 10 years now and not only drive my POV to the station but am also one of the primary drivers of the apparatus. I know how to drive both properly (to some degree, since no one is ever perfect) and understand that running blue (or whatever color light your state uses) to the station can be dangerous. I have been involved in a very minor MVA while responding POV many years ago, and I got lucky there was no damage to the other drivers vehicle. I learned quickly, and took classes on how to drive smart. Now I teach driver training w/in my station.
I actually went through this last year in wisconsin (no ticket) just the legal aspect…. In wisconsin it is up to the fire chief to determine who responds and in what means they respond i.e. Full emergency or just a warning light… For my vehicle to be a full emergency vehicle i had to meet all state statues on audible devices and visual.. The fire department's insurance always covers the responding FF in their POV (if not I would look into other insurance) their personal insurance would then become a supplement insurance for the FD..
There always seems to be some laid back sympathizer that is one step better than everyone else out there. IF I were in cardiac arrest in a rural area that normally takes a first responder some time to arrive, I WANT THEM TO GET THERE ASAP. Blue Lights help that happen. If my HOME is burning when I call and I need help putting it out You bet your behind I want the FD there ASAP. I can't IMAGINE how many homes in your district burned to the ground with your 25 years of safety responding with no emergency status, Tell me something? Do you stop for coffee and donuts also while it is burning? Get real PLEASE peoples Lives and Property are at stake. This attitutude is WHY vollys get a bad NAME. The Cop was a being a complete DICK. PERIOD.
GOOD POINT CONCERNED… BUT IF YOU DO THE RESEARCH ON THE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THATS AVAILIABLE ON THE SUBJECT YOU WILL FIND THAT BY AND LARGE.. THE RISK ASSOCIATED WITH THIS TYPE RESPONSE DOES NOT EVEN APPROACH THE POTENTIAL BENIFIT.
BEFORE YOU BERATE MY COMMENT… PLEASE GO DO SOME RESEARCH AS I DID…. IM THIRTY YEARS ON THE JOB… AND HAVE DONE EVERY WAY THERE IS…. TAKE A BROAD LOOK AND PONDER THE QUESTIONS THAT ARISE OUT OF YOU QUEST FOR INFO ON THE SUBJECT.
Would you please provide a link to this evidence
Do as some fire departments and states have and ban the use of lights in POV's. I am sure this guy was busting at the chops to get there fast and may have cross a double yellow which is against the law even if you are driving a pumper ot ladder truck!!
He probably was on his cell phone as well!
If you purchase the required insurance coverages to have Emergency Vehicle coverage, have the required approvals from the local jurisdictions and obey the laws, take the PD to court. Prove your case.
I don't know where Anonymous figures that the FD's insurance covers us in our POV's when responding. I'm in Wisconsin also, and it's been a stated fact at our house that if were in our POV responding to a call and we're in an accident, it falls on our insurance. We also need to obey the laws of the road when responding. The cops and firefighters have a good relationship here in our town, and as long as we're not driving like idiots when going to the FH, there shouldn't be any problems. Common sense needs to be used in these situations.
I took the liberty of reading all of the comments before responding because this is one of my favorite subjects. the use of lights & sirens vary from state to state and posters who say "take em all away" needs to take into acount that every department has different circumstances and needs regaurding their use. in this case it seems like the FF was within the law and the cop made a bad call. i can come up with a thousand supports for POV lights and ten thousand no supports. i have them on my POV but under florida law, i use them selectively. first of all i am an EMT and if i stop at a scene, i want the protection of them because they say, "i'm here-slow down-watch out-dont hit me with my traffic vest on". Florida created a law the requires you to slow down to 20mph (on two lane roads) or change lanes and slow down (multi lane), neither of which works, but its nice to have the law for safety. amoung the many points that works is the, "he or she is actually respondng to a call for help- and that should be enough" i know there are abuse issues (like who dont?) but its really not a case of "i have to get there fast" its a case of, "if it was you and "if" that persons help made the difference in your care, wouldn't you want the quickest response?…i would. i believe in wanker & poser control, they give us a bad name but i have been "questioned" by law enf under the "whats with the lights" or "what are "YOU" gonna do" catagory to which i will allways say, "more than you". every so often the cops on on jihad against lights on POV because of a negative encounter. thats good, but their concern should be tempered with some common sense too because there are a thousand things that cause us fire guys to start cop hatin from time to time. in florida i have to have writen permission from the chief and thats the law and if the cops dont like it TFB because "comntempt of cop" is not yet a law and i would hope the day never comes when a cop can "make up law" as they go along.
Who gets to ticket the police? They drive well over 10 mph above the speed limit and no one says a thing. The laws say we drive with "due regard" and responding over 10 mph of the limit in POV or FD apparatus is about all I'm comfortable doing anyway. I've done it many times and may again if I feel it is necessary, but I let conditions play the role in me deciding how fast I respond. I have seen local police, sheriff, and state patrol exceed 100 mph enroute and brag about it when they get there. So who gets to ticket them?
Must be more to this story. I guess the firefighter bought the last doughnut, oh sorry, I mean "Police Biscuit", they had in the store and Barney was mad.
Come on LEO's, get that extra set of cuffs out of your rear end and cut us some slack. We will let you sit in the fire truck and give you a sticker if you will relax a little bit.
Around here, regular traffic is often running 5-10 over, right past police radar "traps" with no reaction.
There's more going on here than meets the eye. Either the police (individually or as an organization) have an agenda, or this FF has made a "name" for himself somehow.
We had a state trooper here who didn't like the area and wanted to be assigned elsewhere. She figured if she came down on the volunteer FF's she'd get the transfer. She did, on both counts.
As many have stated – in some places lights (and sirens) make sense for the volunteers. In others, not so much (or not at all). Every day thousands of such responses are made with no problems whatsoever. This incident is an anomoly, and those who think it's the norm are a tad off base.
We had a cop pull over a MARKED Fire Department vehicle on the way to a call for a gas leak. The vehicle was notorious for electrical problems and at the time it was pulled over, the tail lights weren't all working. Apparently this cop didn't believe that they were going on a call. (The vehicle in question was part of the Hazmat team and was a F550 flat bed used for pulling trailers and a tornado had gone through town a few hours earlier. I assume the cop thought he was trying to keep the riff raff away from the damaged area.) The cop is at the driver's window doing his thing when our dispatchers just happen to ask over the radio if they were on scene yet. (Timing is everything;-) Our driver got on the radio and said, "No we're not on scene because a cop has pulled us over for the tail lights being out." At that point the cop realized he screwed up and let them go. Unbelievable!
Wow Dave, this is some good pot stirring. Maybe you could post a link to yellow fire trucks and automatic nozzles.
I guess I was lucky enough to be able to run to the firehouse when I was younger and the drive only takes a minute.
Sounds like a cop with an ego to me. How is a cop using his POV any different than a firefighter using his? That badge and gun doesn’t make them anymore special or above the law. I’ve ran into a few cops that have been butt heads and some that never bother me. I use my truck for response and have department plates and yes, I pay extra for insurance, but not a lot to cover my responses.
Oh and my role/job requires me to have red and blue lights ( officer ) and a siren with district plates. What money we do have goes towards truck up keep and so forth so District issued vehicles that are not meant to fight fire are not a priority and I live in MO too!
MO has already had a cop arrest a firefighter in St.Louis because the cop some how thought he was in charge of the scene on a non police involved EMS call on the highway. Fire/EMS has control until the scene is released to police as long as it isn’t a crime scene.