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Update: Union president Tim Erb says comments were taken out of context in city report. Read Local 319′s response.
There is an interesting article from Pennsylvania in LancasterOnline.com about the arbitration hearing held last month between the City of Lancaster and Lancaster Professional Firefighters Association, IAFF Local 319. The press was barred from attending but reporter Bernard Harris was able to get the report about the hearing that Mayor Rick Gray provided to the City Council. It was prepared by Mayor Gray’s chief of staff. Neither Gray or union president Tim Erb commented for the article.
Here’s an excerpt:
Lancaster city officials claim poverty but are sitting on $9.5 million in reserves.
City firefighters contend their volunteer brethren are unreliable but want to be able to live in areas protected by the volunteers.
The firefighters of Lancaster Professional Firefighters Association IAFF, Local 319, are seeking 5 percent annual salary increases, minimum staffing requirements, increases in bonuses and number of holidays and other items in a new three year contract which should have begun in January.
As it stands, firefighters have to live within a 13-mile radius of the center of town in order to be available for off-duty response. The union wants to extend this radius to cover all of adjacent Lancaster County at the same time the City wants to tighten it to 5-miles.
Part of this issue relates to the fact that there is no automatic mutual aid in place. Before calling in volunteers from surrounding departments the City currently has to call in off-duty firefighters and pay them overtime. The fire chief, Tim Gregg, points out that within a 5-mile radius there are nine volunteer departments (some also have part-time firefighters).
This issue was discussed in the hearing with Lt. Kevin Ressler who is part of the union’s negotiating team:
When he testified, Ressler was asked if volunteers were reliable. “No,” he replied.
He was then asked, “Can you count on volunteers to protect your life?”
“Absolutely not,” Ressler replied.
According to the article, the union is resisting efforts by the city to go to 24 hour shifts with 48 hours off, from the current two days, two nights and four days off.
Read entire article at LancasterOnline.com
Also on STATter911 …
- Lancaster fire union says Mayor’s report took comments about volunteers out of context. Read IAFF Local 319′s response. – March 13, 2012
- Bah! Humbug! Did DC’s mayor play Scrooge for cops & firefighters over the holidays leaving them out of the holiday bonus? Vince Gray says no. Unions say yes. – December 25, 2012
- DC Fire spokesman Lon Walls suspended after Tweets that DCFD protests were ‘racist act’. Mayor distances himself from comments. City Paper profiles Chief Kenneth Ellerbe’s battles with IAFF Local 36. – February 9, 2012
- DC update: Is Chief Ellerbe fire proof? Watch hearing live. Relatives of patients in high-profile cases scheduled to testify. – March 28, 2013
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So, extend the overtime radius and don’t call VFF who will arrive faster, save properties and may be, be there to save the Reg/OT ass. Unions are strong when members participate, these members need too stand up and not be sorry later when notification has to be made of a fellow FF injury/death bacause we waited for OT to travel 19-miles, sorry I just don’t get it.
Sounds like the City has them on either the residency requirement OR the use of volunteer companies for extra alarms.
The union can not have their cake and eat it too. I.e., you cannot not say those volunteers are unreliable and then in next breath say that you and your family want to live in areas outside of Lancaster City protected by (unreliable) volunteers. Afterall, if any good career FF knows about response times, training, rate of fire growth – why would they want to take up residence outside on the City anyway?!?
Sounds like some hypocrisy!
I think its funny how they are dissing on the volunteers and yet the volunteers do the same job they did. i think volunteers are more reliable seeing as they want to get out there and do the same things but without pay. and if we look at the past, the fire department started because of volunteers. they make up more than 50% of the emergency sevices. so with them all having the same training, who is more reliable: those who want to help others but want an increase in pay, or those who want to help for free and dont care about getting paid?
I would take pay over volley anyday…also same training? Lets look at 90% of volley houses that have subpar training and just throw people on the street to save lives.
On that same note, professional firefighters came into being because of volunteers getting in fist fights while the block burned to the ground. If you are going to bring up who came first the chicken or the egg, you really don’t have a valid argument. Also bringing up that volunteers are “better” because they don’t care about money shows a lack of intelligent thought on your part. You’d care about a raise if it means being able to keep a roof over your child’s head and food on the table, but it certainly doesn’t affect the competency of a firefighter when he’s at an incident.
This is unfortunate for the residence in the area. These city officials and union FF Representatives are driving a wedge between the career paid firefighters and the volunteers and the residents in that area are who pay. They don’t care who comes and puts the fire out when they have an emergency at their house. 70-80% of all firefighters are volunteer firefighters. Us volunteer firefighters are held to the same training standards as the paid career firefighters. We probably actually train more then career firefighters because budgets are tight and the municipalities don’t want to pay overtime for the career firefighters to train and they don’t have time to do much hands on training when on the clock. Volunteer firefighters take the time out of their busy lifes to train on their own time and not for pay. They take time out away from their paid full time jobs to respond to fires and emergencies and don’t get paid. They do it because they are serious about their firefighting duties and risk their lifes not because that is their job that they are
Paid to do but because they want to help people that are in need of help. Fortunately the volunteer depts and paid depts in our area get along GREAT and work together very well. I wish it would be like that everywhere and we wouldn’t let politics affect the safety of our community.
Unions are part of the reason the country is in the shape it is in.
While I am pro union, I’ll admit the chief and this IAFF local are being hypocritical here. If they want to improve career staffing so they don’t rely on local volunteers, they should be willing to a) make some sacrifices to achieve their goal and b) not push for being able to live in areas protected by VFDs while making unprofessional comments about the same VFDs.
I think there’s also some poor communication between the Chief and the Union over what they want, too.
Guys, I would urge you all to go back and read the article on Lancasteronline.com In the talk back section there is an interesting response to the article. The entire write up given the reporter from the Lancaster paper was prepared by the Chief of Staff to Mayor Gray. The LT in question here was thrown under the bus big time by the administration and greatly misquoted.
And for the record, we made it clear that the summary was written by the chief of staff and distributed by the Mayor.
Statter
i think they dont want the volunteers around because we dont screw around we get the job done and go home this idiot doesnt want to be shown that others are willing to do it for nothing but the satisfaction of doing a good job!!!
mandie.you hit the nail on the head.same problem in my neck of the woods.
me personally if i was a volly near the city when a call came in to assist them i would tell them sorry we are unreliable and not show up i would demand off their boxes and tell them they can deal with it themselves and see what happens to them then. That is so disrespectful towards the people who volly their time away from their families to do this job and then to be put down and kicked by these jack wagons who think that they are unreliable.
Shame on the Lancaster Newspaper for printing only small blurbs from the transcripts of the recent contract arbitration. This is not a career vs volunteer issue and once again by not printing what was actually said and it’s meaning, the Lancaster Newspaper has tried to make news rather then report it. When asked if the volunteers were reliable the answer was” No” from Lt Ressler. No mention was made as to what was actually said and the context of it’s true meaning. Should the City and it’s Fire Department on Volunteers, who are working other jobs and have their own commitments to their respective Fire Departments and communities, to come in to supplement the City for inadequately protecting both the Fire Fighters and the citizens of Lancaster? To that the answer was NO! (takes on a whole new light now doesn’t it)? Can you count on the volunteers to save your life? Absolutely not! Now the actual meaning. Can the Fire fighters of the City count on the volunteers to protect their lives in an instant on the scene of a fire when time is of the essence? Absolutely not! There is not a problem between the fine Volunteer Firefighters of this county and the City Firefighters. Reliability and dependability should not ever be confused with . There are many many fine volunteers with outstanding when it comes to doing the job of a firefighter. With all of their own commitments at work and home and in their communities, can they always be upon and on to be available to help? No and they should not be put in that situation The City guys are more than happy to get some assistance when absolutely needed. I would urge you to read between the lines to find the missing pieces whenever a story is written. More times than not the stories you read here should start off “Once upon a time” because that is how fictional fairy tales start. Shame on the Newspaper for once again trying to make volunteer vs career an issue.
03/13/2012 2:19 pm
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Read more: http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/603584_Lancaster-city–firefighters-air-differences.html#ixzz1p1sSTiRl
I read the response to the article and it was well stated. Some good points were brought up and I also believe you can never 100% believe what is written in the paper, I’ve been there(misquoted). I am a volly and if you ask me how many firefighters are available at any one time if a call goes out it could be 10 or it could be 20, truth be told you can never know for sure. Hence the reason why mutual aid is always called if we get a structure fire. So they do have a point when they question the reliabitly of the volly’s responding.
Everyone should take a deep breath and realize this isn’t a volly vs paid issue it’s a city money problem.
There are bad volly ff and bad paid ff but there are also good volly ff and good paid ff, thats life but don’t make it worse by assuming if you’ve seen a bad ff they’re all like that, whether they’re paid or volly.
Yeah, it looks rather amusing that they want the ability to live even further out from the city limits, which, of course, would put them and their family and all their worldly possessions under the protection of the vollies. By the way, isn’t it rather common that the further you get away from a metropolitan area, the less experienced the voliies are?? Not always, but usually. Tell the wife and kids to sleep well.
A small impoverished city near me solved the OT/call back versus calling in the vollies issue years ago by just putting the callbacks as part of the same second alarm (they only staff one alarm’s worth on duty) with the vollies coming in to help. The city guys get their OT, and the on-duty crew gets help rolling in fairly quick from the neighoring vollies. The city guys get to live in much nicer areas and the vollies certainly benefit from the added experience.
This is an argument between an employer and it’s employee’s. If you have no skin in the game keep your opinions to yourself. The City of Lancaster doesn’t rely on it’s neighbors to help plow the snow, mow the lawn, police the city, run the libraries. But it’s ok to let non-union people in to help fight fires becuase they like to do it? The city is needs to take care of itself, by properly staffing the FD.
Yes, 80% of the firefighters in this county are volunteers, they only protect 20% of the population. Where as the career firefighters only number 20% but protect 80% of the people of this country.
We are allowed to voice our opinions because of this thing called the constitution!! Your one of those paid guys that is better than any vollie and fells you deserve top pay, benefits, and pension. If yu do’t like what your making then I’ll take your job. Why should the city pay to fully staff the rigs when 90% of the time your sitting around. You guys don’t run that many jobs. This is why you run mutual aid. To save money by not staffing yet still getting the help.And the unions, the root of all municiple greed!!!! One last thing, if they would let you live anywhere in lancaster county like you guys want, then who is more reliable when you are on the scene of a fire and need someone to save your ass Your coworkers who live 20+ miles away or the vollie stations 5 miles away? Get off your pedestal.
Google is your friend.
Well, actually maybe not YOUR friend because the statistics you quoted don’t apply to Lancaster County PA.
I did some research on the trusty internet.
Population of Lancaster County-2010 census: 519,000
Population of Lancaster City-2010 census: 59,000
So, ergo and heretofore, about 88% of Lancaster County is protected by VOLUNTEER FD’s and only 12% is protected by PAID FD’s.
That is assuming that their is only one PAID department in Lancaster County. The Public Safety Directory lists Lancaster City as having the only PAID fire department there.
The examples that you listed probably do not have anywhere near the same level of variability in manpower requirements that fire fighting has, nor do they pose the same risks to the citizens, other than police service, which can and has called in help from PSP and other agencies in the past. So, those are not very good comparisons, IMO.
If a group of people in the Lancaster area, both within the city limits and in surrounding communities, got together and decided that they were going to volunteer their time and mow all of the grass in the city for free, then why would the city want to pay their own public works people to do it? Why pay for any service that someone offers to provide for free, unless there is a substantial difference in the quality or reliability of the free service? The union apparently doesn’t think there are reliability or quality of service issues with volly manpower, allegedly. So if that is the case, then why not use them?
I happen to disagree with the union’s position, or at least the one they espouse publicly, and feel that there are reliability issues with volly manpower and not all volly manpower is trained to the same level as the career people, at least in my small corner of the world. I actually thought that was common knowledge within the fire service. I volunteer at a fairly active house, which is all volly, but has career staff at other area departments. Sometimes we go out with 20 on a box, and the next alarm comes in and we go out with four. That is just the way it is, not just at our house, but at most volly houses across the country. The career staffing never changes. They are going out with 3 or 4 per rig. It is very reliable, relative to our staffing. That is what taxpayers are paying for in terms of fire service…the reliability.
Yes, and it is this type of Archaic thinking as to why all you 3rd class cities are in the shape you are in. Broke! You cant keep raising taxes! Also, as 95% stated, your numbers are seriously flawed. Lancaster County has 519,000 residents, less than 59,000 live in the city. York County has 449,000 people in it. Less than 44,000 live in the city. Dauphin County has 250,000 residents. Less than 50,000 live in Harrisburg city. As a proud IAFF member, I cringe every time I hear this old fashion rhetoric that has gotten most unions no where. The career world does not revolve around 3rd class cities.
1. Lancaster County (and PA in general) is one of the strongest volly areas in the US. If the quotes and context of the journalism are accurate this would folly and political suicide by the Union and their requests. The area outside the City is hiring more and more career firemen anyway, so the argument is becoming mute.
2. If the quote about volunteers “not being able to count on to protect your life,” and the rely of “absolutely not,” he voiced a strong opinion that is devoid in the face of reality.
3. The problem is the automatic aid issue. For a place like Lancaster or Reading to not have auto aid is what is putting the citizens at risk at a major incident. The call back policies enacted in the region are union stonwalling with all the wrong intentions, pure and simple.
Be very cautious of the terms auto aid vs mutual aid. What is the time difference between callbacks and utilizing mutual aid companies? Until the auto aid issue is addressed the union has no credibility. I am not saying the raises are not justified. I am not saying callbacks are not justified. I am stating simply that the downplaying of the capability of the volly service at the expense of paying guys a few times is stupid.
Lets all keep in mind we are only reading excerpts from this. I believe it is totally being taken out of context. Lets call it what it is. Since volunteers are under no obligation to respond when the tones drop, there is a chance that when the call comes in.. No one may show up..making the system has a whole unreliable. Can all of you honestly say your volunteer dept. responds, fully staffed with (qualified) firefighters in a timely manner 100% of the time?? No one cares whether your career or volunteer when they call for help, all the want is someone to show up in a timely manner. Instead of getting all up in arms about comments how about supporting the brothers in Lancaster? Seems to me as the administration of the city is merely looking for ways to drop staffing so more can go in their pockets.
I have to throw my two cents in the mudslinging here. I apologize right now but this is going to be long. Some of the comments here show that there is some really deep anger and maybe even some hatred between some career and volunteer guys. I was a volunteer for ten years before I found a job in a city and now have 14 years on this job and hold a rank of Captain. In a perfect world, there would be no such thing as a volunteer firefighter. This is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country and yet the majority of firefighters in the country are volunteer. People are willing to pay for so much, yet for some reason we can’t pay all the firemen. One of the biggest money differences I see between the two of us is equipment. Granted not every department that is volunteer has new rigs and all the latest equipment. I know there are plenty of small town fire companies in the sticks that have old rigs and old equipment and the money is not there. I also know of plenty of volunteer companies that replace rigs and equipment a lot more then they need to and basically piss money away for the newest parade winning pieces.
The best piece of apparatus in the world isn’t worth a dime if it is sitting in the firehouse because the company can’t get a driver, or a crew. For some reason spending millions on beautiful firehouses and fire trucks has been the priority and putting some paid guys on seems to be a taboo. If life safety is really a priority, a guaranteed crew cannot be beat.
Someone made a point that the volunteers are held to the same standards… I disagree. Why two NFPA standards for fire departments? One for Career, one for Volunteer? NFPA 1710 vs 1720?
As for living in the city? Well, some career fire departments have nicer areas than others. I can tell you the city I work in is a shitpit. I have to live here and believe me, sleeping at night and getting woken up by gunshots, having murders at least once every other week, the worst school district in the state, and crime statistics through the roof, you wouldn’t want to live here either. Flip the coin, I know PLENTY of volunteers that vollie at houses in towns they dont live in because they don’t like their local fire company.
Another thing I see that is a big difference is White Hats… lots of them. And most volunteers wearing any bars got them by popular vote. I had to pass a test, then go through an oral interview conducted by Chiefs from across the State, and compete with the other candidates. I had to study for a long, long time. I went to schools on my own time too, and on my own dime. I have dedicated my life to this job. When the tones drop at 3am for a fire alarm that we get ten times a week, the same staffing goes every time. When that happens in the volunteer service, you get the luxury of resetting your pager and going back to bed. When you get to pick and choose calls response staffing suffers. So in all honesty, a volunteer service cannot guarantee the same staffing from one call to the next. I can. I can also have my Engine in front of your door within three minutes of your 911 call. That’s why they pay us… to get there when you call.
I don’t hold any animosity towards volunteers. I do lose a lot of respect for those that like to fuel the fire and point out statistics and paint us as guys that sit around the firehouse 90% of the time and do nothing. My day starts with roll call, we then do complete apparatus and equipment checks, routine maintenance, housework, training, and building inspections, every day. Sure we have down time, but maybe there’s some jealousy here because I can’t think of another reason someone who does the same thing just doesn’t get paid for it would bring that up…
PAF: You have some hatred here brother…How can you fault someone for wanting the best pay and benefits for their family? Whatever job you have, would you be happy if you had to constantly fight to keep what you have, and fight to get a raise? How about fear getting laid off or have someone come in and do your job for free? You say we don’t do squat 90% of the time, yet you would like to take their job… Wanting the city to staff the rigs properly is a safety issue, not just for the firefighters but for the citizens that pay their salary. It’s bad enough we have to fight the city every contract, now we have to hear from “Brothers” who feel as if they are the same as us yet want to stick a knife in our backs and sound just like a politician spouting off that we don’t do anything 90% of the time, jobs are down, and we are greedy and don’t deserve raises and pensions and benefits and that the volunteers are here to save the city from us greedy bastards! YOU are the reason some professional firefighters hate volunteers, because YOU are demonizing other firefighters simply because they get paid and you do not.
Lastly, I see there was some lack of full reporting on this article, so now the whole story comes out and hopefully those who jumped the gun and came out swinging have had a minute to reflect.
I’m glad I was fortunate enough to land a job to get paid to do a job I love doing. Just because I get a check doesn’t mean I have any less love for it than someone who is willing to do it for free. Unfortunately, money is tight across the board right now, and unions fighting cities for proper staffing, pay, and benefits is becoming the norm. 48 hours a week fighting fires and getting lousy sleep and being exposed to all this crap I think deserves a decent check, and good health care, and when I put thirty years or more on this job and contributing to my pension my family and I deserve to be able to live out my retirement comfortably. At the end of the day that is all we ask. Show some love, “Brother”
EngineBoss:
I spent 18 years as a volunteer in a combination department in the Washington, DC area. You talk about animosity. Well, it was my experience that the animosity originated with the Union. The IAFF is one of the most antagonistic organizations I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. Go ask one of the rabblerousers in Local 1619. They were the masterminds behind Resolution 43, declaring volunteer fire departments as “Rival Organizations”. I don’t ever recall NVFC or a local volunteer association defining career personnel in that context.
In Pa, Vollies and Career are not held to the same standards. In fact Vollies are not required by the state to even have basics. I was lucky enough to be on a Volly department that was basically career minus the paycheck. We are staffed 24/7 365 and the training standards are set very high. All members are required to have FF2 and some kind of ems. All of our officers are state fire instructors and each have over 12 years of experience on the job. Our officers are hand picked by the Cheif himself so we don’t have any unjust canidates. I know that a piece of paper doesn’t mean anything in the fire service. I feel this is how all volunteer departments should be operated and if they were it would eliminate the majority of the problems between career and volunteer. I hate to say but there are still Volly departments who operate like social clubs, we hae a few in my county. Beer machines and porn after hours is unprofessional and those departments should be held accountable. You can’t have guys showing up to calls with dips in their mouths or the Chief giving a live tv interview with one in and please don’t show up in your whacker “I’m a volly shirt” or “all men are created equal” crap. If they would put as much time into training as they do buying these shirts the volunteer service would be top of the line. Being volunteer isn’t an excuse. I like others have the luxury of doing my hobby as a career but I will always keep my volunteer ties.
EngineBoss…I wish everyone in this area could read your reply here. You said it best brother!!!
People like this guy is why I dislike unions. This guy is at a hearing, which likely means he was under oath, and sat there and LIED! He is a LIER!
First, learn how to spell. The correct spelling is “liar”. Second, he did not lie. He was stating his opinion. You may not agree with his opinion, but he wasn’t lying. Third, if you would have read the update, his remarks were edited and reported “out of context” by the Mayor and City Administration. Lastly, I don’t think you would dislike unions if you were being represented by one.
EngineBoss, well said. I have been in the fire service going on 37 years, both volunteer and career. Both my sons started as volunteers and are now career. This issue gets me angry every time it comes up. Let’s all be honest and I’ve said this before. There are some very good volunteer FD’s and Firefighters and there are some very good career FD’s and Firefighters. And then, there are some on both sides that aren’t so good. We all know career people who are only there for the paycheck and are happy to “sit around” all shift. We also know volunteers who are only there to be able to say they’re a Firefighter, or are there for the social aspect, or who couldn’t land a career job and are jealous and vindictive because of it. Let’s stop bashing each other and work together.
As for this particular case, it would seem the elected officials are trying to fuel a controversy between the paid and volunteer staffs. I don’t know anything about the fire service in Lancaster. I do know of a City in the area where I used to live that deals with this issue. The City FD is all career and staffs three Engines and a Truck with a minimum staffing of 3 on the Engines and 4 on the Truck and a DC. That’s 14 people on an initial alarm for a structure fire. If they transmit a 2nd alarm, they get 2 Engines and 1 Ladder from the surrounding volunteer FD’s and they recall their career staff by pager. The recalled career personnel staff their reserve apparatus and depending on the fire situation, either respond to the scene or cover the City. The system isn’t completely fool proof, but it works and provides the protection needed. And, there is no residency requirement for the City after you’re hired. Recalls are done by pager, so it’s up to the individual where they live and whether or not they answer the recall.
I have said this in other posts, the fire service is under attack on both the volunteer and career side. This is not the time to fight each other but to stick together and support each other. To the volunteers knocking the paid guys, those jobs that are being lost could one day be yours. Think about that.
@FORMER CHIEF,
No I will not learn how to spell, but you are right I did not catch the update and did not realize that his statements were taken out of context. You also have a valid point that I might like a union if I were represented by one. However, currently the big bad union led depts in my state are trying to push the state gov. to disband the inmate FF program and that leaves me with no 2nd due. I don’t care for that. Oh, I had an off day and am terribly sorry I bothered you with my incorrect spelling.
John, sorry you had an off day. I probably should have left out the “spelling” comment. I just have a pet peave about calling someone a liar. I think being called a liar is one of the worst things you can do and in this case, I don’t think the Lt. deserved that. Just my pet peeve. As a former IAFF member, believe me, I didn’t always agree with their position on every issue. My former local had a great deal of success improving our work place and the services we provided. It’s not always about salary and benefits. I don’t know the situation in your state, and I know even less about inmate FF programs. I would think the unions position has to do with inmate Firefighters being used as replacements for career firefighters. I’ve read some articles on jurisdictions wanting to do that just to save money. Not something I would want to see either. I hope there’s a better solution for you 2nd due. Stay safe.
Typically most general sweeping comments are inaccurate and malicious in nature. Whether they are in context or not. They are usually made to formulate an opinion or train of thought to materialize a specific agenda. In this case to extend the coverage area that would be handled by the full time Fire Dept. With most counties unable to support a full time Fire Dept. the people organize a volunteer Fire Dept. to at least have some security. What seems to become the norm rather than the exception is, government relies on the the good nature of the people to protect themselves, full well knowing that there will always be willing ‘participants’ to take on the responsibilities of something that should be a right and not a privilege. Basic training and equipment to get a volunteer fire fighter up and running today costs in the area of $10,000 if they’re lucky thats with used equipment and squeezing them into ‘official’ training programs where they’re rubbing shoulders with ‘career’ firefighters, perhaps with or without the intention of finding a full time firefighting position themselves later in the big city.
But as a volunteer, they will more sooner than later have to know how to run the apparatus, and not just the rescue but tankers, pump, ladder and all the equipment associated with them, because in rural country they’re not just running structure fires but also MVC’s and extrication, medical, forest and grass fires, train derailments, small airplane crashes, Hazmat, farm silo fires, power transmission line failures, floods, rescue etc…oh and there aren’t any convenient fire hydrants to speak of so you’d better know where the nearest water source is and the best path to and from and how you’re going to draw it…and dont crash into the other tanker barrelling down the narrow bumpy dirt road on the return crash fill…
This itinerary is not conducive to volunteers who think its easy, it doesn’t take long to weed out those who should seek another vocation and they dont pick their times, they’re on 24/7 rain, shine, snow, and dead of night.
In Canada its closer to 90 % volunteer because of the greater expanses of land and less dense populations. But as the infrastructure increases so do the full time departments that can be supported. Government keep their heads low on this issue because the rurals take care of it and God forbid, fire servce should become fully funded in all areas.