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Earlier coverage of this story
Earlier today we told you about an article by Bernard Harris at LancasterOnline.com describing an arbitration hearing last month involving the City of Lancaster and the Lancaster Professional Firefighters Association, IAFF Local 319. As we mentioned in our original posting, the article quotes from a report about the hearing prepared by Mayor Rick Gray’s chief of staff. That report was delivered to the City Council in executive session. The report cited testimony from one of the union negotiators, Lt. Kevin Ressler, who talked about volunteer firefighters being unreliable and not being able to count on them to save your life.
According to Harris, neither Mayor Gray or union president Tim Erb were willing to comment for the original article. President Erb has been in touch with STATter911.com and says the report sent to the City Council takes Lt. Ressler’s response to questions at the hearing out of context. Here is the full response from Local 319:
Shame on the Lancaster Newspaper for printing only small blurbs from the transcripts of the recent contract arbitration. This is not a career vs volunteer issue and once again by not printing what was actually said and it’s meaning, the Lancaster Newspaper has tried to make news rather then report it. When asked if the volunteers were reliable the answer was” No” from Lt Ressler. No mention was made as to what was actually said and the context of it’s true meaning. Should the City and it’s Fire Department on Volunteers, who are working other jobs and have their own commitments to their respective Fire Departments and communities, to come in to supplement the City for inadequately protecting both the Fire Fighters and the citizens of Lancaster? To that the answer was NO! (takes on a whole new light now doesn’t it)? Can you count on the volunteers to save your life? Absolutely not! Now the actual meaning. Can the Fire fighters of the City count on the volunteers to protect their lives in an instant on the scene of a fire when time is of the essence? Absolutely not! There is not a problem between the fine Volunteer Firefighters of this county and the City Firefighters. Reliability and dependability should not ever be confused with . There are many many fine volunteers with outstanding when it comes to doing the job of a firefighter. With all of their own commitments at work and home and in their communities, can they always be upon and on to be available to help? No and they should not be put in that situation The City guys are more than happy to get some assistance when absolutely needed. I would urge you to read between the lines to find the missing pieces whenever a story is written. More times than not the stories you read here should start off “Once upon a time” because that is how fictional fairy tales start. Shame on the Newspaper for once again trying to make volunteer vs career an issue.
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Also on STATter911 …
- Lancaster fire union official’s testimony: Volunteers are unreliable & you can’t count on them to protect your life. – March 13, 2012
- General alarm for apartment building fire in Lancaster City, PA – August 11, 2012
- Miami-Dade captain demoted over Facebook post testifies at arbitration hearing. Brian Beckmann stands by comment posted off-duty in Trayvon Martin case. – February 6, 2013
- PGFD career firefighter claims gear was tampered with at Riverdale firehouse. Union president cites hostile work environment behind transfer of firefighters. – August 14, 2012
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Even reading this.. and the explanation given I DISAGREE. The Volunteers are still reliable and dependable even if they do have other jobs and family and everything. Most places of employment, at least in our area, are more than willing to allow volunteer firefighters to leave work and respond to fire calls. With volunteer departments you usually have larger group of members, our department has 32, and yes there are some people that work out of the area or that are not able to leave work but with that many guys on your roster you always get a good number that are able to respond and do respond, especially for larger incidents. Volunteer firefighters take great pride in being able to do our job and do it to the best possible level we can and when we get paged out… we are eager to respond and put our training to work. YES… you CAN count on Volunteers to save your life as much as you can count on a Paid firefighter to save your life. Even paid firefighters aren’t gauranteed to be able to save your life. With fires there are no gaurantees but I gaurantee a volunteer firefighter is going to give a 110% risking their own life and doing EVERYTHING they can to save someone. Volunteers are doing it because it is in their blood and they love doing it… not because of a paycheck so when called upon you are going to get 110%. I am very grateful that in our area, the law enforcement departments are public safety (the officers cover both Police and Fire incidents) and the volunteer fire departments in our area work VERY well and have a GREAT working relationship with the public safety departments. We are comfortable working with each other on major incidents and when called to help we know what they expect of us and they respect our thoughts and ideas when it comes to controlling a scene. We are equals when on a scene together. Not one department being superior to the other because one is paid and one is volunteer. our IC’s work very well with their IC’s to make sure EVERYONE on the scene goes home safely. That is how it should be.. it should NEVER be a paid vs. volunteer debate. We are all a brotherhood whether it is a paid or vol. department and we all need to respect each other and make sure EVERYONE goes home safely. That is what is SHOULD be all about. Politicians, Unions, Municipalities need to STOP turning these things into Paid vs Volunteer debates. Face it… there will ALWAYS be a need for Volunteers.
Based on your response, it would seem that you have a very limited exposure to the volunteer fire service outside your little slice of the world and very limited exposure to the career fire service too.
While your company may not be having response issues, there are plenty of VFDs that do.
While your company may have enough well trained personnel responding to incidents, there are plenty of VFDs that do not or have very few that are.
The fact is, the individual volunteer firefighter (in a system that doesn’t staff their fire station) is not reliable and dependable because they will not be able to respond at a moments notice 24/7/365. Collectively, the VFD will be more reliable and dependable, but there will still be inconsistency in most cases since there is no guarantee on who will actually respond (quantity & quality) and how fast they will be able to staff a unit and respond.
As was already pointed out, you managed to insult the career fire service with your insinuation that we are only in it for the paycheck and because of that we won’t also give 110% to save somebody or get the job done.
You are correct that there will always be a need for volunteers in many communities. However, the need for volunteers doesn’t necessarily guarantee that sufficient interest from the community will be generated in order to keep the seats of the apparatus filled.
very nice Brain Nelson, while defending volunteers you manage to insult paid firefighters. Very insulting to insinuate we do it only for the paycheck, its the same as saying volunteers do it for the cheesey t-shirts or blue lights.
The issue in the City of Lancaster is on duty staffing levels are at an all time low and have been a hotly contested item during contract negotiations. The idea that the City wants to rely on volunteers when no guarantees can be made as to the number responding at any given time. The use of the term dependable is also in reference to those unknown responding numbers. This is not a volunteer vs paid issue. This has nothing to do with the abilities,reliability or dependability of volunteer firefighters while actually working an incident. Most are very well trained and could teach some career guys a thing or two without a doubt. Please take this as the City intended it, as an attempt to discredit a very fine young Fire LT who has been a thorn in their side as a negotiator. He is a credit to the Department and has many friends in both the volunteer and career ranks and has had his eyes opened by this unscrupulous act by the administration of the City of Lancaster.
The Union’s position makes sense. It is not the responsibility of outside communities to make up for daily shortfalls in the city’s fire coverage. The city should not expect people who volunteer for their home communities to leave their paying jobs and their families to provide a service that the city refuses to pay for. Especially considering that they leave their own communities with a lesser level of protection while they are in Lancaster.
If people are willing to provide a service for free, then why would the city object that offer of free service and demand that they pay for it? I concur with your statement about outside communities not being responsible for what goes on in the city. It is certainly not their responsibility. However, if members of those communities decide that they want to volunteer their time to put out city fires, then that is their choice. The problem that I would have with that from the perspective of an “outside community” member, is that my tax dollars would be supporting fire suppression within the city rather than in my community. Not the necessarily in terms of the manpower, because they would be volunteering their time, but the use of my community’s equipment to use on city incidents is where I might have some concerns.
So, following your line of thought, would you not want apparatus from outside of your community to respond to a fire at your home on mutual aid because you don’t pay for it? That’s what mutual aid is, we help each other when needed, not really worrying about who is funding it. Also, manpower is an issue, because you better be sure that your community is not unprotected or under protected when their available manpower resources are responding into a neighboring jurisdiction.
I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that when a particular community is paying for fire protection, then they need to ensure that the protection they are paying for is actually there when needed, and not in some other area that is not paying for that protection. If, under mutual aid or some other agreement, that paid manpower and apparatus responds outside of their community, then there needs to be other resources available to fill that void. In terms of the manpower, if it is paid manpower we’re talking about, then that is easily regulated but if it’s volunteer manpower, then there is little that could be done to prevent them from responding to a fire in another community. If they are going to volunteer their time to do that, then in most cases, they are going to be able to do that, regardless of how much of a hole that puts you in in terms of available manpower.
A community that has decided they need paid fire protection also needs to assure they staff the fire department adequately. Adequate staffing per NFPA means four Firefighters on an Engine. That can be supplemented with volunteers if you have an adequate number of trained volunteers. Just because someone volunteers, does not mean they are trained beyond the minimum level. Also, any Fire Chief that deploys their available resources to another jurisdiction while not assuring that their own jurisdiction is adequately protected, is jeapordizing the safety and well being of their citizens. It doesn’t matter that just because people volunteer, they can do whatever they want. Their first priority it to their own jurisdiction. As a fomer Fire Chief of a volunteer FD, I would not send my resources to adjoining towns on mutual aid unless I can assure that my town is protected.
Mr. Nelson
WOW that was to the point and awsome to say at the least, i am and will be for a long time coming a proud volunteer firefighter and for 17 years have seen this debut come and go with the same results in the end. In Canada i think the ratio is still 7 out 10 firefighters are volunteers and not sure what the ratio is in the United States? yes there are volunteer departments that well we will say training and lack of it shows, but in the same note i have seen career firefighters at calls and you wonder what there training is like, both groups will always make mistakes and will also save the day. A few things to rememeber no mattre what we did not create the emergency we are called to sovle it the best we can, when most people are in need of help they or family memebers don’t ask if your career or volunteer they just want to have the people that train an dhave a passion come and help.
and heres a thought for any one that still wonders about career or volunteer,,,, when a house is on fire do they burn different or hotter depending if your career or volunteer??????
No it wasn’t well said. In fact it was a disgrace. I too am a proud volly and career firefighter but his reply is completely wrong. He criticizes career members that we only do it for the paycheck but at the end of his reply he states that its a brotherhood. Yes there are great volunteer departments who could show up career guys but the social club departments are still around. No I don’t do it for the paycheck. I do it for the same reason I volunteer. I would bet my career that the majority of the volunteers if given the opportunity would loved to be paid to do their hobby.
Captain ( Funny you need to add your rank….do you need to sound important on this blog ??? )…
For the most part, volunteer fires DO burn hotter than most paid departments. You mean to tell me that two identical house would be extinguished the same way ???
1) A paid, dedicated dept usually can have some sort of initial response right away.
2) Most volunteer depts have to get the page, get in their p.o.v., drive to the firehouse, wait for a small crew, get on the road, THEN try to do something with a crew that may or may not know what they’re doing. See he difference ???
That’s it in a nutshell. It is a broad brush, the you get the point of the painting. ps…I’m paid AND a volunteer as well. I know how the game is played.
We lump all volunteers in groups that we know from our area. Just like we do paid departments good or bad.
Many volunteer departments are becoming pro active, they have day and night duty crews. My company has a duty crew agreement with 2 other neighboring companies that rotates a crew all week. More companies have adopted this program.
But I think its a diservice to those who are dedicted enough to do for free what people are getting paid for, the same training and then say they wouldn’t be safe with volunteers. Are they going to stand outside and watch people burn? No their are going to do the same as a career FF. Also people forget that while there are times response is low there are times response can be high. Volunteer response is like snow. You never know how much your gonna get and your never happy no matter what.
How can this be anything BUT a paid vs. volunteer issue? It sounds like the city wants to start to rely more on volunteer manpower to supplement the paid manpower, and use some volunteer manpower in lieu of some paid positions, obviously to save money. Without the availability of the volly manpower, the city would have no choice but to use paid personnel. However, since volly manpower is apparently available, at least to some extent, the city seems to want to use the free services provided by the vollies rather than the paid service of several current paid positions. Like it or not, it is a paid vs. volly issue.
Ah yes, the age old fight. Proverbial pissing contest.
There are great career people out there. They come to work, do their jobs, enjoy their jobs, take pride in their work, and teach the next generation the right path (regardless of whether or not the person their teaching is receiving a paycheck)
There are great volunteer people out there. They come to calls and functions, do the job or task at hand, enjoy it, take pride in it, and teach the next generation the right path (regardless of if the person their teaching is a volunteer or career person)
Volunteer companies have problems, usually the same ones, no matter where you go, the nature of the beast.
But after being involved with two combination departments, I have to say the true majority of people doing this job for a paycheck anymore are doing it for just that. A paycheck. I see alot of emotion on here, and Im guessing those from the career side argument are most likely the minority of actual people who are proud to work where they do regardless of how much they make, but I can’t hesitate to say many career services in this region have become the same repeat performance, a performance that only could top that of a Charlie Chaplin film, the true butt of a joke.
The powers that be hire people who are god awful qualified, but first off, don’t live here. They don’t pay taxes here. They don’t have family here. They don’t own a business here. They only know this place exists because of the advertisement.
They come here. They do what they have to. They get a job. The majority live out of county, if not even, out of state……mostly in PENNSYLVANIA! But with them they bring this amazing prophecy, that because they are employed here, they should be afforded all the same rights as a taxpaying citizen! They should mean more to the county than the volunteer who lives blocks from the station they work in, and answers calls at all sorts of various times, not just the 24 hour period they work in once every four days!
And with that prophecy, they bring another! That we should have a level of fire service that is second to none and they should be paid like it! They tell us, the citizens that actually live here, that we need….absolutely have to have…this level of protection! Yet, the overwhelming majority live in areas that don’t have anywhere near that level, nor will they ever! They try to bullshit us up on side and down the other with fancy terms, and tell us that the volunteers, the actual citizens, are lack luster in every way, shape, and form. Well, my question is, what do you expect when you provide the volunteer departments in your county with a budget that is even less than the lowest paid career firefighter in your department?
So all in all, when it comes to the bashing and animosity, this is where alot of it can come from. This is why there is an overwhelming lack of public support for quite a few departments. You really do have to cherish both sides of the fence for both sides to win. When you don’t, one tends to kill the momentum of the other, and while I’ll say theirs plenty of volunteers out there who need that beat into their head, I think it’s alot more of the “union brethren” who need it beaten into their heads, or just plain beaten until that type runs out. Going about business the way that has been done here is no way to win support. The hypocrisy has become too overwhelming to focus on anything good.
Well said!!
Jimmy, I agree with your first couple of paragraphs. But after that, I disagree. I can’t speak for your area, but I don’t believe the “true majority” of career Firefighters only do the job for the paycheck. The “true majority” of the career Firefighters I know, do it for the love of the job. Many of them could do something else, and probably make a lot more money, but that’s not what they’re in it for. Just my perspective.
nuthin ignites the blood like vollie vs. paid and this is gonna throw gas on the embers for a long time
On one hand I can completely understand the comment that was made, though it was a poor choice of words. As volunteers are we reliable?? Yes. Incredibly reliable. Are we always AVAILABLE?? No. There is a big difference. Personally I see this comment as a bit of an insult to us volunteers everywhere. It’s not our fault that we all have to work for a living. Again, poor wording. Someone may want to issue a revised statement about the volunteers…
I disagree that it was a “poor choice of words” and your own statement proves that it wasn’t. Yes, there is a big difference between the meanings of “reliable” and “available”. However, the discussion was about replacing career staffing with mutual aid volunteers.
On-duty staffing typically provides for a consistent level of response. This is typically something that is very desirable in an emergency situation.
In most cases, a volunteer fire department is not able to provide that same level of consistency in terms of staffing level, training level of personnel on an apparatus and total response time. This does not automatically mean they aren’t doing an acceptable job providing service to their community.
In terms of emergency response, “reliability” is more than just somebody showing up at some point when there is a call. As you stated, the volunteer firefighter is not always available. This is at the very heart of the point being made regarding reliability in my opinion. The point was not about not being able to do the job when called upon, it was about the inconsistency that is inherent with most VFD deployment models vs the consistency that comes from on-duty career staffing.
If the poop is hitting the fan, which would you prefer – the response of a known number of FFs with known credentials arriving in a known amount of time or an unknown amount of FFs some of which my not have adequate credentials and arriving in an unknown amount of time?
Most volunteers have gone through the same training as the career guys some have more training than some career guys and more experience…Just because your career doesn’t mean your higher trained or better in any way it just means you do it as a job. Second if you look at the national run surveys and times etc most volunteer companies get out just as fast as some career departments. In this day and age the only real differences between paid and volunteer is the fact that firefighter A gets a paycheck and firefighter B does it for free. yes there are fire companies that are not so great but they are trying and the fact that some places are poor and lack manpower that does not help most municipalities cannot afford the tax burden of a paid firefighting force. PA firefighters save tax payers billions every year simply by existing and I think we the firefighters of the 2354 volunteer companies do a good job and so do the72 combination and 22 Paid companies in the state. So keep throwing rocks guys only hurting ourselves.
http://www.newpa.com/sites/default/files/uploads/hr148reportcondensedversion.pdf
Paid and Vol have to meet the same MINIMUM standards to be considered a Firefighter. Regardless….If a career Fire Department allows its fire personnel to stay at that level it is a travesty. However, if a volunteer FD has personnel that attend additional training and are able to said learned skills on the incident, the community should consider themselves very lucky.
Not in my state. There are absolutely no mandatory (state level) minimum training requirements to get on a fire apparatus and operate at the scene.
All career firefighters have to meet some minimum standard in order to be considered a firefighter. In my department, that minimum standard is FF1.
Most VFDs have some sort of training requirements, however a member is considered a “firefighter” as soon as they are sworn in and issued gear – even if they have no training yet.
I will concede that most volunteers have probably completed the same basic training courses that most career firefighters in smaller career/combination departments have completed. However, you are kidding yourself if you think that most volunteers have completed training equivalent to that which a career firefighter in a large career department receives while participating in a recruit training academy setting.
Regardless, training is only part of the equation. Experience using that training is at least an equal factor.
What constitutes “experience”? Does 5 years in the fire service equate to same amount of “experience” whether that time was spent in a VFD running 100 calls/year or in a municipal FD running 20,000 calls/year?
Is a person with 20 years in the fire service responding to 3-4 working fires per year on average more experienced than a person with 10 years in, but responds to 20 working fires per year on average?
I have looked at the national run surveys and none that I’ve seen include response times so I’m not sure what your basis for claiming comparable response times between career vs. volunteer departments. I can tell you without a doubt that in my area, on average we are out the door minutes faster than the VFDs.
My small city is surrounded by 10 small VFDs in 9 communities who’s districts directly border the city. For half of these VFDs, my department is the next closest station to all or part of their districts. If you consider total response time (turnout & travel times) we would be the fastest to respond into almost all of those districts. Guess how often we routinely run into those districts on automatic or mutual aid? The answer is we don’t and it’s not by our choice. Two of the stations will call us occasionally, but it only amounts to a handful of calls per year. 80% of our personnel are FF2 certified and we see a good bit of fire.
So, if “in this day and age” the only difference truly is the paycheck, then why aren’t we being requested to respond more often into those communities, why do we have apparatus driving through our city and past our stations to get to calls that we are much closer too?
The fact is, there are differences. However, that doesn’t automatically mean that anybody is “incompetent” or not doing the best they can.
The simplest answer your city council probably feels that your primary job is to your city. Second they probably dont come in to often because again city council has a paid firefighting service so why bring in volunteers or let their firefighters go play with the volunteers? I use to run with a company that was basically in the suburb of a city and guess what they would rather burn building to the ground before calling for mutual aide from us or anyone else and I remember driving past the city station on the way to a mutual aide call numerous times.
And as for you stating that they dont go through the same training as an academy is ludicrous It is the same amount of hours the only difference is that when your in academy you do it all day instead of a few nights a week. there are some departments that require new FF’s even as volunteer to go through the academy class at the local training school which is the same place that the city guys get trained hmmm As for experience there are volunteer organizations that run more calls than some city paid departments and vice versa so if a volunteer organization responds to 1000 calls a year and your city company responds to 300 who is gonna have more experienced firefighters in this scenario? there are city companies where they only respond to 3-4 fires a year and so regardless of experience if your highly trained your gonna get the job done.
See this is the fundamental issue with this argument because the paid guys will say we are higher trained and we are more experienced etc…Us volunteers respond with facts that say we are just as experienced and trained as you.
The national run sheets I was referring to show runs etc and show that some vounteers respond to more calls per year than some paid. The national standard set by NFPA for response means that volunteer or otherwise you have X amount of time to respond and time and time again even small rural companies meet or exceed this standard and alot of times are just as fast as the paid response times. Ok 8 mins for a full first alarm to be dispatched and arrive on scene of an emergency…ok most paid companies have the first out companies and have to recall (just like volunteers) the rest of their own off duty firefighters to the station to respond.
But regardless of how we continue this argument or fight remember that volunteers started the fire service and we still represent over 80% of the fire service so this will continue to be an argument well into the future.
The actual statement from the Union reads as follows and is much more grammatically correct. Again I will say the city of Lancaster crafted the “news” story in a blatant attempt to discredit a fine young man! Shame on the Lancaster Newspaper for printing only small blurbs from the transcripts of the recent contract arbitration. This is not a career vs volunteer issue and once again by not printing what was actually said and it’s meaning, the Lancaster Newspaper has tried to make news rather then report it. When asked if the volunteers were reliable the answer was” No” from Lt Ressler. No mention was made as to what was actually said and the context of it’s true meaning. Should the City and it’s Fire Department rely on Volunteers, who are working other jobs and have their own commitments to their respective Fire Departments and communities, to come in to supplement the City for inadequately protecting both the Fire Fighters and the citizens of Lancaster? To that the answer was NO! (takes on a whole new light now doesn’t it)? Can you count on the volunteers to save your life? Absolutely not! Now the actual meaning. Can the Fire fighters of the City count on the volunteers to protect their lives in an instant on the scene of a fire when time is of the essence? Absolutely not! There is not a problem between the fine Volunteer Firefighters of this county and the City Firefighters. Reliability and dependability should not ever be confused with ability. There are many many fine volunteers with outstanding ability when it comes to doing the job of a firefighter. With all of their own commitments at work and home and in their communities, can they always be depended upon and relied on to be available to help? No and they should not be put in that situation The City guys are more than happy to get some assistance when absolutely needed. I would urge you to read between the lines to find the missing pieces whenever a story is written. More times than not the stories you read here should start off “Once upon a time” because that is how fictional fairy tales start. Shame on the Newspaper for once again trying to make volunteer vs career an issue.
The comments by the union president no matter what the intent, the words spoke of an attitude about how negative the Volunteers are in performing their duties when called upon. The intent of what the union president wrote were stereotype and with unwarranted predjudice. The union knows very well there is a Mutual Aid Agreement in place which stipulates the
need and availble resources to be deployed whenever and wherever is required. What the union is doing is plain and simple they’re initiating a self serving request for a salary increase. That is fine, it’s how,why, when,who the union is dealing with. The Mayor and city officials are the primary folks to be working with the union. The union president’s words made it sound like Volunteers arenot readily available when called upon. That seems far fetched from the truth and facts. Yes there are some good well trained Career Firefighters
and yes there are some good well trained Volunteer Firefighters
that are in place and serve communities just as career people do. The Mayor spoke about Mutual Aid which the union should read and understand the intent for such a resource measure. The career firefighters should keep in mind, that maybe a volunteer firefighter,crew just may pull them out of a burning structure. Yes the same applies to volunteer firefighters,a career firefighter,crew just may pull them out of a burning structure. With all the SAFETY Measures Homeland Security awareness and the technologies of today’s firefighting efforts it would seem much more productive for career and volunteer personnel alike team up and work together in a Professional Mentality. The public has a truct in Public Safety, primarily
fire and EMS. Come on People Get it Together now.
I am also like many of you, paid and volunteer. I agree and disagree with many comments made as I’m sure the same will go for my comments. I do go to work as a firefighter for a paycheck but that’s irrelevant to the point I thats being made. I also love going to work. I love the job and serving the community, the plus to that is I get paid for doing it. I think the point that’s trying to be made is this- volunteers are good people, willing to come help at a moments notice, actually itching for that tone to drop so they get a chance to fightfire
I get the Union’s point, but perhaps they could run their press releases by the local elementary school English teachers for proof reading first?
STOP!!! When are we going to learn that we are all on the same team. Sure there are career FF’s that just do it for the paycheck just as there are volunteers that are glory seekers. We need to stop fighting each other and get our crap together. I am a volunteer in an area where there are no career departments. While it is true most volunteers would love to be career firefighters they don’t volunteer to take career firefighters jobs.
In Lancaster if the career and volunteers would get together they could show the city that to properly protect the citizens the city FD should meet certain minimum staffing requirements and the volunteers could back them up by saying yes we can provide mutual aid but it is important that the city have certain staffing because we take longer to get there, or may be busy on another assignment etc. The union could then get there farther distance for residence requirements because the volunteer companies can fill the gap between the initial call and the call back arriving to help. There are so many was that this could have worked out different.
All that being said, shame on the Mayor for making public information the came out during contract talks. Anyone that knows about negotiating contracts knows things get said just for the sake of posturing. I hope the paid guys get what they need but can repair any damage and work with the volunteers. We ARE on the same team after all.
This is a repost. First one was cut off**I am also like many of you, paid and volunteer. I agree and disagree with many comments made as I’m sure the same will go for my comments. I do go to work as a firefighter for a paycheck but that’s irrelevant to the point thats being made in my opinion. I also love going to work. I love the job and serving the community, the plus to that is I get paid for doing it. I think the point that’s trying to be made is this- volunteers are good people, willing to come help at a moments notice, actually itching for that tone to drop so they get a chance to fight fire, pull ceiling, vent a roof, preform a tanker shuttle or whatever else it is that needs to be done. Thats pay day for the guys that train for it. OR they are there for the T-shirt and to say they are a “Fireman”. Career fire fighters do this for a living. It’s their Specialty. Volunteers do this as a hobby or to help out. Just like a brick mason specializes in laying brick but might like building cabinets as a hobby. Generally speaking, The more you do something, the more familiar you become with it and the better you are at it. Most career firefighters have a lot more time to train and master their skills. Again this is what they do for a living. Anyone can preach that a lot of paid firefighters are ONLY there for a check but I disagree. I can think of plenty of jobs I could be doing making twice what I make as a firefighter. The argument vols have is that they really love doing it, that there heart is in it, they are there because they want to be. To me that means nothing if you can’t perform. I love Wakeboarding, its a hobby, and i still suck at it because i do not have enough time to practice. Don’t get me wrong a lot of volunteers can perform just as well as paid staff but I guarantee you if you but 10 paid firefighters next to 10 vols 8 of 10 career firefights will perform up to standard where as probably 3 of 10 vols would. The bottom line is career firefighter have more time to train on the job and are held to higher standards because the have to. Some volunteers bring theirselves to these standards which is great, I would fight fire with this type of vol any day, but some don’t. Some vols don’t train because they don’t have to, they aren’t held to the same standard and that’s the last person I want next to me. In my volunteer dept I know who I will fight fire with and who I won’t. At my paid department I will fight fire with anyone because we are all held to the same standard.
Every post is missing the point except one. The pissing contest between the both sides is old, and aside from the funding issues of both career and volly depts, the main problelm with the US fire service today. The issue is the automatic and mutual aid issue.
Automatic aid will be a forefront issue in the US in places that career, combo and volly depts border each other in the next few years. IMO, without writing a book, automatic aid will and should be implemented in as many jurisdictions as possible – and as soon as possible. This is a liability and an operational issue which needs to be addressed.
The IAFF would like to make it a reliablility and knowledge/capability issue – it is not. The worry that if auto aid is implemented callbacks will not be necessary is not a good arguement.
The issue that the backward mentality of the volunteer jurisdiction don’t want to sent equipment to a neighboring jurisdiction because of tax considerations and the “loss of protection or service,” is just stupid. Mostly, this revolves around EMS – like sending an ambulance “over the line.”
This is a big problem. Where I work, we could have a box alarm and other than the 1st due engine, the rest of the assignment is closer from the next county. No one is willing to touch the issue. Usually it is the IAFF on both sides of the line that will not entertain the debate. The ironic thing is that most volly systems are, in fact, now combination. More and more paid personnel have been hired. The arguement will be soon moot.
As far as the Lt, and the reliability of the vollies. He may be correct in his assessment (no matter what the context of the article) but it is not forward looking in his response. Yes, he is voicing his opinion but look at the reality of the townships that surround Lancaster City – well trained, consolidating for efficiency, and most certainly, adding career staffing.
Automatic and Mutual Aid is certainly at issue here, however it isn’t necessarily the use of such that is the issue, but rather the misuse of it.
The core issue at hand is the desire of the local government officials to further understaff the fire department (via the elimination of some firefighter positions and companies) for no other reason than to save money and then rely on the neighboring volunteer departments to make up for the elimination of fire department positions and apparatus.
It’s one thing for several “small” fire departments to routinely respond to each others incidents (automatic aid) or to request assistance with “the big one”. However, it’s an entirely different thing to purposely reduce staff in a municipal fire department to the point where they can no longer handle their incidents “in-house” and then expect the neighbors to come “bail you out” on a routine basis, particularly if you won’t be returning the favor.
Additionally, it may be so where you are at, but in my multi-county region, very few VFDs have transitioned to legitimate combination departments. Regardless, the argument will never be moot until all firefighters are uniformly trained and held to the same standards.
Mark Too hit the nail on the head
unfortunately the posts have been split into two listings,
http://statter911.com/2012/03/13/lancaster-fire-union-says-mayors-report-took-comments-about-volunteers-out-of-context-read-iaff-local-319s-response/
Typically most general sweeping comments are inaccurate and malicious in nature. Whether they are in context or not. They are usually made to formulate an opinion or train of thought to materialize a specific agenda. In this case to extend the coverage area that would be handled by the full time Fire Dept. With most counties unable to support a full time Fire Dept. the people organize a volunteer Fire Dept. to at least have some security. What seems to become the norm rather than the exception is, government relies on the good nature of the people to protect themselves, full well knowing that there will always be willing ‘participants’ to take on the responsibilities of something that should be a right and not a privilege. Basic training and equipment to get a volunteer fire fighter up and running today costs in the area of $10,000 if they’re lucky thats with used equipment and squeezing them into ‘official’ training programs where they’re rubbing shoulders with ‘career’ firefighters, perhaps with or without the intention of finding a full time firefighting position themselves later in the big city.
But as a volunteer, they will more sooner than later have to know how to run the apparatus, and not just the rescue but tankers, pump, ladder and all the equipment associated with them, because in rural country they’re not just running structure fires but also MVC’s and extrication, medical, forest and grass fires, train derailments, small airplane crashes, Hazmat, farm silo fires, power transmission line failures, floods, rescue etc…oh and there aren’t any convenient fire hydrants to speak of so you’d better know where the nearest water source is and the best path to and from and how you’re going to draw it…and dont crash into the other tanker barrelling down the narrow bumpy dirt road on the return crash fill…
This itinerary is not conducive to volunteers who think its easy, it doesn’t take long to weed out those who should seek another vocation and they dont pick their times, they’re on 24/7 rain, shine, snow, and dead of night.
In Canada its closer to 90 % volunteer because of the greater expanses of land and less dense populations. But as the infrastructure increases so do the full time departments that can be supported. Government keep their heads low on this issue because the rurals take care of it and God forbid, fire servce should become fully funded in all areas.
The term ‘volunteer’ is a throwback to the days of the bucket brigade. I haven’t seen buckets and bee lines in a while so maybe the title should change to just Firefighters.
Most of your post didn’t seem to have a clear point for the discussion at hand. The discussion is not about expanding the coverage area of the career department as you stated. The issue is about a city’s officials cutting companies and staffing to the point where it’s FD is no longer able to handle their calls “in-house” and then rely on neighboring VFDs to make up for their intentional understaffing of their FD.
Your history of the fire service is a little off. When the fire service started, departments utilized volunteers not because they couldn’t afford career firefighters, but rather because the community came together to fight the fires – the bucket brigade. Even the FDNY started as a group of volunteer departments.
As demand increased, the need to do something different for fire protection became clear and paid firefighters started to be hired.
The term “volunteer” isn’t really a “throwback” term. A “throwback” term would be something from years past that is no longer commonly used, which is not the case for the term “volunteer”.
Your departments are run slightly different from our area where firefighters are being hired in all capacities. They all go through the same training, with real equipment and real fires, we even have smoke towers and everything! My point is the same that, why would ‘govt’ pay full time when you have volunteer at a fraction of the cost, and as the first organized volunteers were formed in Rome, +2000 years ago they were called ‘family’…
Going through the “same training” and meeting the same MINIMUM standard, my Friend, are two different things. Being around longer is not an argument and does not automatically give validity. I will say you are right about what the municipality is willing to pay or willing to give up.
My question to you is what establishes MINIMUM STANDARD
Training is based on type of equipment and tactics used, and tactics are based on type of equipment, bottom line, cost of equipment vs cost of implementing equipment, and applying the forces to offset cost of property loss and if possible to ultimately preserve human life. What decides the type of equipment to be used is a combination of cost and available technology. If we had unlimited resources bunker gear for ex: would be a full self contained body suit capable of withstanding flashover and outfitted with a mobile pressurized fire suppression system, HUD TIC camera etc, (ie spacesuit). Current technology and infrastructure makes this cost prohibitive.
So what is the cost of a life? at what point do we resign loss of life or property to misfortune? Is it misfortune that we still build with flammable materials and handle hazardous materials or is it simple economics. Ultimately what is the goal of a firefighter, to preserve life and property IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO’. The only risk should be ‘calculated’, otherwise the entire service would be deemed ineffective. The skill of Firefighting has no doubt evolved into a science but is a science limited to funds.
Union Firefighters are trying to make all firefighters paid union. Thats why they lobbied for the new certification rules. To put the squeeze on Volunteers who have to WORK not just lay around and wash the trucks.
Training requirements can’t be kept by small volunteer firehouses; since they have classes during business hours.