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Previous coverage & video from this fire here & here
More video from the fire Tuesday at the Ozark Treasures Thrift Store, 1026 St. Louis St. in West Plains, Missouri. This time is is helmet-cam video from part of the crew on the initial attack on the loading dock and rear of the store.
This video captures collapse the roof and wall on Side B and the removal of crews that were up close on Side A starting at 11:00 in the video.
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Also on STATter911 …
- Arrival video & fireground audio: West Plains, Missouri thrift store fire. – May 18, 2012
- Raw video & early pictures: Fire & wall collapse at West Plains, Missouri thrift store. – May 16, 2012
- More video from three-alarm Darby, PA fire. Collapse of market’s wall forces evacuation of exposure. – April 14, 2013
- Pre-arrival video: Building fire in Kimberling City, MO – July 22, 2012
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Well, first off, let’s give these guys credit for persistence in continuing to post videos of this fustercluck.
So now we see that the tower laid in to the engine, disconnected the supply line (or advanced water supply…lol), repositioned the tower … and then handjacked supply line back to the engine they just pulled away from. Classic.
Can we assume that their SOP calls for the PPE’d guys to bring the handline to the building and the vest guys to bring everything else?
And, once they got the PPV going, they pulled the line away from that doorway and moved around to opposite from where the fan was working to make entry … against the powered ventilation. I must have missed the class or textbook that calls for that tactic.
Well, hey, no one got hurt and everyone went home … blah, blah, blah … plus it’s now a prime piece of corner commercial real estate available for redevelopment.
What size line did they use first for this type of building? What size line did they use first for the amount of smoke pushing out of every orifice? The 1.75″ line. Does anybody agree that a bigger attack line based on what is seen on arrival would have been a better choice? Is it written on stone tablets somewhere that for every fire we must put forth the 1.75″ crosslay?
Couldnt have said it better CHAOS I hope that these goofs are looking at their own video tape.
Just think of the time they saved! PPV and the elevated Master Stream burnt that down PDQ! No 8 hour operation there. Back in service in no time and their picture in the paper. Great way to show exactly what not to do. Thanks for posting the video.
Remember the old Lewis Grizzard bit about the guy testifing in church — and the punch line is the preacher say “I wouldnt have told that” = kinda the same thing here -”I wouldnt have shown that”
Couldnt have said it any better.I hope those ff’s are viewing their tapes ASAP they need all the help that they can get. PS: Break out those trainng manuals.
I for one, think it’s time we stopped beating these guys up. They obviously did the best they could do on a building that was an absolute loser. This was essentially a dollar store and for those who don’t already know it, given any decent head start they are always losers. Thankfully no one got hurt and I believe we and the West Plains FD learned some good lessons from this fire.
Granted…but…the fire equipment on-scene ALONE was probably worth more than the store. No excuse for lack of fire basics. It’s easy to nit-pic from our pc’s……….every video posted by Statter helps the fire service. Strike da’ box….WTF I guess….
Thanks Crowbar, that is my feelings also. They were out guned from the start. There was more fire then manpower/ hose lines. It was stated early ” this is the same building we had before ” maybe the F.F./ vest guys know more about this building then us sitting here looking for every little thing we see to ripe apart these guys.There is no fire that goes the way the textbook said it will go. We all can learn from every vidio on here. Keep your heads down guys.
I would love to agree with you, but why was the initial attack team pondering an interior attack at the front door then?
As for being outgunned, you are very correct. I thought it humorous that the IC was telling dispatch to follow second alarm protocol and have MA units sit in their station when they needed more manpower at this fire RIGHT NOW. This just shows another lack of proper strategy and\or tactics.
And again, I must ask, if they knew the building, therefore the double roof construction, they knew the roof was sagging, they knew there were cracks in the wall(s) why in God’s green earth were these dumbasses in the collapse zone with and without TOG? Not even getting into those idiots hanging out under an overhang with a collapse in the making and what we know about overhangs\parapets.
I’d love to give them the benefit of the doubt that their stupidity was based on ignorance, but we can’t. Like I said, some of their vids have shown strong work in the past. This entire incident is a clusterfoxtrot from the get-go.
Big fire = Big water
OK, haven’t had time to watch all of the previous vids and made it 3 minutes into this one before I had to stop. Only a matter of time before there’s a LODD from West Plains. Strange, because other of their vids have shown some decent work, not all, but some. This one, not so much.
Maybe the guy posting on the other thread could now explain the PPV and then as CHAOS noted, the complete opposite of what anyone in this universe has ever recommended, making any kind of an attack downwind of the fan.
Crowbar, maybe so, but this helmet cam (in the 3 min I was able to bear) shows some flat out stupid practices that need to be pointed out.
Opening a door with heavy black UNBURNED FUEL PUSHING without being masked up. Everyone should know that is a recipe for a flashover. Then, they do it 2 or 3 times without ever flowing water and attempting to cool the atmosphere.
Talking about ventilating but still attempting an attack without ventilating VERTICALLY if possible. We can be thankful they didn’t go in that front door (maybe they did later???) because the results could\would have been bad based on smoke conditions.
Wrong sized line for an advanced fire in a large commercial structure.
Having 6 other guys bring the tools to the attack team that they should have taken on their own.
Setting a fan in the front door (when vertical ventilation is needed) then moving the attack line to the exit hole.
Here’s a few that I noticed just in 3 minutes. God forbid a probie or anyone sees these items and thinks “Hey, that’s cool, we should try that”. Fortunately for West Plains FD, it wasn’t any of the responding members’ day to die, because they sure were doing their best to make it happen. But, based on the one guy in the other thread trying to defend stupidity and only raising more questions than he answered, not sure they learned anything or will from what anyone with half a brain is telling them here and who knows where else.
OK, after watching more of this video, I was going to say “Good for them, they had enough brains to not go interior on a building with 2 roofs” because those are going to get someone killed.
Then I kept watching and made it to the collapse part. Even after reports of cracks in the walls and sagging roof, we have one idiot in a pretty vest in the collapse zone at the B\C corner and a couple other not so bright folks using a couple hose lines on the A side WITHIN the collapse zone, and 2 of them under an overhang.
Sorry for continuing the beating Crowbar, fortunately the video ended, so I will stop also.
Despite their best efforts, we can thank God they all went home.
Ok Dave stop the pain please!!! Throw me a bone find a good one please LoL
Bad enough they are using fog nozzles, the one in the helmet cam appears to be an ‘automatic nozzle’ total junk.
I think people would be less critical if we thought that the guys in the video were going to learn anything from it. Instead a “firefighter” tries to make excuses and in the process tries to school “half the country” with his “pop quiz” knowledge. I have dealt with a few of these roofovers and most of the times they are total losers, but if you have a decent preplan in place there are a couple of things that SOMETIMES work. POP quiz —- setting a ppv fan and or a fog nozzle in the door and milling about is not one of them.
What do you guys thing about cutting a “hay loft” opening at the front of the store for ventilation? We have done it on some lightweight constructed homes with fire in the attic and been able to put a good knock on the fire with the tip of our quint. It beats falling through the roof.
Wow. These guys are special. PPA was the right thing — you’re never going to vent the roof in time to make a difference, and you have 5 minutes from the time of arrival to make any rescues and any attempt at extinguishment. If you have any rescues, they’re somewhere in the store, you’re not going to search that store in 5 minutes on your hands and knees, not even with a TIC. A PPA procedure would have been to do the 360, make sure you had the back door open, start the fan at the front, turn it in, LET IT STABILIZE, get a report from the rear, watch the smoke clear, and send a 250+ gpm line through the store to the stock room for extinguishment. ASAP check the overhead to make sure that fire isn’t in the drop ceiling, if it is, pull them out. Send a search team or to to lighten up on the line and make a visual search of the store, the office, and the checkout area. Don’t waste or risk personnel on the roof. Have outside teams force entry from the rear, but keep the doors closed. Set up a RIG, get ready to breach walls. At 5 minutes or “primary complete”, if you don’t have the fire knocked down, pull them out. Set up a portable monitor in the the rear, if you have heavy duty piercing nozzles consider using those where the monitor nozzles can’t reach. If no signs of collapse yet, knock out a cinder block and push a distributor nozzle or wide fog 2.5″ nozzle through there and retreat to let it eat.
ricko -if you mean opening a gable for access, it sometimes works,the problem with these roofovers is they have 2x rafters (joists) with decking and hotmop on top -then at a later date the put a pitched roof over it. If you open up the gable you can hit the top of the flat roof usually full length, but the flat roof rafters/joists are at right angles to the gable end and you have to get all the ceiling pulled if the fire is in that void also. It can be done but you have to be hitting on all cylinders.
I would have kept front door closed, watched fire in the rear for a moment, vented the roof or at least some high point, watched the smoke lift, open front door and get at it. Smoke conditions would have been drastically better and then you can see what you have and what you need.
By starting and setting the PPV at the front door all that was done was to propel fresh air into a fire and make it rapidly grow…..
Remember find, contain, extinguish…..
Just my thoughts…