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This is video shot yesterday of a fire in an apartment above Teariffic Cafe at 51 Mott Street in Manhattan.
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Also on STATter911 …
- Early video: Shed fire spreads to commercial structure in Ontario. – September 27, 2012
- FDNY arrival video: Underground electrical explosion sparks minivan fire that extends to highrise scaffolding in Manhattan. – July 8, 2012
- UPDATE – Raw video: FDNY at Brooklyn apartment fire. – September 18, 2012
- FDNY in action. Apartment fire in Manhattan. – March 16, 2012
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Whats the deal with the roofman going 15 feet up the aerial then coming back down?
My guess is to try to see what’s on the C side, and check the roof of exposure D.
fedup – how dare you criticize FDNY’s bravest. Every one of them has been to more fires than you’ll ever even read about. /sarcasm
Textbook PPA:
Locate the fire by observing it from the street.
Control the common stair with a PPV fan. There, fire is contained, for now.
Vent the 2nd floor window.
Advance a PRECONNECTED 200′ x 1.75″ line, 200-300 gpm.
Charge the line, force the door, extinguish the fire.
Search the rest of the building. Get a line above. Check for extension.
Later PPV fans can augment the first or pressurize the exposures.
Needed a ground ladder to the fire floor and he was the only one available? Doesn’t the Driver on the ladder truck gear up and become part of the operation?
Thirty seconds from the Maxi-Brake to the aerial leaving its cradle. That should inspire every chauffeur/operator/engineer to keep training and familiarizing themselves with their apparatus. Big city or small rural town; location shouldn’t matter…we should all strive to be that efficient.
Amen
any number of reasons:
interior team got to the top floor and popped the roof hatch.
his officer was on fire floor or floor above and saw fire knocked down and roof didn’t need to be opened.
medical problem or equipment problem.
BC got there and told him to forget the roof.
I just love the keyboard heroes on here who make comments on less-than five minutes of footage, taken from not the greatest angle, and have no information about the situation (trapped victims, reports of extending fire, conditions in the rear/interior, apparatus/manpower delays due to traffic,pre-plan / CIDS info ….look it up, keyboard commandos), etc. It shows lack of experience in certain environments/types of fires.
PPA – Awesome for burning down ordinary constructed buildings that were built god knows how long ago = lots of voids = places the fire can/will travel. Are you sure the stairwell is enclosed? Go ahead bro, start the fan….lets pressurize that space and see where it breaks out on us, not to mention what it may do to the fire.
Check out PPA and its answer to “outdated” and “archaic” tactics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTInZhv4ZyE
As far as the fire being contained….How do u know? Until you get people inside to confirm, how do you know the apartment door isn’t open exposing the interior (other apartments/interior stair)with heat smoke and fire? How do you know it isn’t in the walls, pipe chase, etc? Perfect conditions for starting up that fan, huh?
200′ Preconnects – don’t work all that well in this type environment. One stretch might be 150′, the next one is over 400′, the next one might be 100′. I’d hate to tie myself to a “one size fits all” handline set up. With proper training and planning, 1.75″ filled out with 2.5″ can cover long stretches (you do the flow calc/math)and give you a great many options with adequate GPM.
Fans, fog nozzles, smooth bore nozzles, CAFS, 1.75″ hose, 2.5″ hose etc., all have their uses and place on the fireground. Just like a Phillips head and a Flathead have their places/uses…..all depends on what the job/task/fire/situation dictates. Cookie cutter mentality/tactics will not work in dynamic environments.
While some of you are busy setting up fans, trying to figure out what color vests you’re going to wear, instructing your people to never ever go on the roof because vertical ventilation is just “old school” “tired old tactics”, and trying to figure out who are going to be the inside people; who’s going to be the outside people; and who’s going to be in transition, others will be busy actually getting the job done… efficiently, effectively, and yes..safely.
Great video. A bunch of locals yokels who haven’t one clue in a dozen turn a fan on a bunch of guys in a training fire and you think it represents PPA. Clue #1 they put the fan in the door after they entered.
I don’t know what the door is doing, and I don’t need to. If it’s open, the fan will clear the stairway and keep the fire venting out the window, rather than into the hallway. If it’s closed, the fan will pressurize the stairway and ‘stall’. Conversely, if you have an open door, and the skylight fails, or is vented by the ladder company, you now have a chimney that will kill firefighters and civilians on the stairway, as well as trapping all the other occupants in their apartments.
FDNY’s 1.75″ lines flow 185 gpm. With Ponn or Angus 1.75″ hose, you can flow 250 gpm out to 300′ with an EP of 250 psi, or 185 gpm out to 550′. You can have a 4 or 500′ preconnect. You can ‘bundle’ the hose so that it doesn’t need to be flaked out, so it forms a nice coil just outside the door, or on the landing. You can add 100′ sections to a 200′ or 400′ line, so you can have 2,3,4,5,600′ lines. It’s faster to stretch a preconnect and perform a progressive hose lay with 100′ bundles than it is to wait for the truck to call back, load hose onto the shoulders of the engine men, and stretch to the 6th floor. If you’re worried about flow, use 2″ or 2.5″ lines as your base section, or use 2″ hose for all your hand lines, or go higher with your engine pressure. Go wild with CAFS and you can have a lightweight, hard-hitting line of 1000′.
Cookie cutter? FDNY is a SOG driven department. Are you suggesting that they form a huddle and develop a plan before they fight fire? Because SOGs a cookie-cutter solutions. They work. Every fire is not different. They are all much the same. You’re not going to think them out.
Setting up fans takes 60 seconds, and makes locating the fire and victims easier, and makes the hose stretch easier. At difficult fires, the 60 seconds up front saves minutes, lives, and buildings. At easy fires, the 60 seconds doesn’t cost anything.
that truck is first due in chinatown and has KEEP BACK 200ft in english & chinese on the back
Commenter: If thats what works for you, then by all means, have at it.
In the FDNY there are procedures that are in place and followed by all members for pretty much every scenario one could face. You can rest assured that members are familiar with the buildings within the companies local and as you can see, handle the job quickly and efficiently.
The window had already vented itself. By pressurizing the stairwell not knowing what doors are open or closed could lead to a potential significant fire spread via the interior stair or common hallway.
It’s also difficult to stretch a preconnected 200 foot line off an Engine that is 300 feet away from the fire at the hydrant.
It’s not a great practice to charge your line at the door to the fire. I’ll check my charged line at the front door and be sure it is bled out and has the proper pressure and pattern for my attack, and then stretch the line. That’s a personal preference and I won’t deviate from it very often.
Having the outside vent take the second floor windows prior to charging your line is asking to get baked.
Bottom line: Well trained firefighters and officers followed a plan of action that has been in place for a very, very long time. The jobs that needed to be done were done by those responsible to do them, and the job went quickly and with the proper outcome. The roof was laddered, members had a handline stretched and in operation quickly, fire was darkened down, and probably placed under control shortly after the video ended.
You take your company to the same fire in the same building and see how your tactics play out.
How well do FDNY’s tactics work? How many FFs have FDNY killed on stairwells? How do you measure success, then?
I’ll buy charging the line at the door for a second floor fire. Having the engine 300′ away at a hydrant (not likely in Manhattan, probably much closer) is a poor use of resources, and a very slow way to get a line in service.
For a fire further from the front door, depending on the configuration of the building, a dry stretch is a viable option for getting water on the fire quicker. If you’re absolutely convinced that you need to have a charged line in the lobby of a 6 story building, a progressive hose lay, where additional sections are added to a break-apart nozzle, is a much faster evolution than estimating a stretch and advancing 200′ of charged hose.
You know the “window had already vented itself.”. Air is coming in at the bottom, feeding the fire, and smoke is exiting at the top. The fire IS intensifying. Regardless of how the interior doors are configured, pressurizing the stairway, with a vented window, is going to keep the stair clear, while either doing nothing to the fire room (in the unlikely case that all the doors are both airtight and closed between the fire and the front door) or going to push the heat and fire gases out of the vented window.
Conversely, having a roof man open a roof hatch to clear the stairwell is going to potentially make the stairwell into a chimney, risking all the occupants in and above the fire. Even worse if the ladder company did it from the inside, as they too will be baked.
New York is an awesome city, and many of it’s firefighters are excellent people. However, their tactics leave much to be desired.
Be verrrrry afraid of “always & never” folks.
Waaaaaay too many variables involved.
Tactics seem to have worked well in this fire. Nobody was killed on this job. As for other jobs, I don’t know… How Many firefighters have ben killed on stairways?
As for laying in or laying out, it depends what works best for your department. Ask the guys in cities like New York or Detroit or anyone else who drops a bundle at the building and drives to the hydrant if they would rather do preconnects and drop a supply line on the way in. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Truck Placement is key on some of these jobs and laying in from a hydrant simply doesn’t work well sometimes.
I never said I was absolutely convinced that I need a charged hoseline in the lobby of a 6 story building. I’m not standing on the sidewalk checking my nozzle on a charged hoseline when the job is 6 floors up. I’ll do that on a stairwell, balcony, or some other safe place prior to entering the hallway where the fire is. For this particular job I would imagine that the Engine Officer ordered the line charged prior to entering the fire floor, and probably becuase they were already in that position when the chauffeur had the rig in pumps. I would also imagine the first due truck had the door forced and controlled and was awaiting the line.
The PPV may help clear the stairs, but if there are doors or windows open below the fire or people in the doorway or a whole list of other factors I don’t see much benefit. If the wind is working against you that fan won’t do anything. We use a PPV when the fire is out or mostly out to clear smoke and heat and they do work great for that. They are also loud, which I see as a problem in the initial stages of a fire because hearing what is going on in and around the building is important, they blow crap around and in the stairwells and wherever else they are and unless you have a mask on and breathing air that junk gets in your eyes sometimes, and I can’t tell you how many times they’ve gotten knocked over during overhaul and been in the way of the door… having them there when people are exiting the building and a line is trying to get stretched and I’m trying to hear a radio and talk with the members all while a fan is on full force sounds like added complications.
You also say to locate the fire from the street. That is not always possible. I may narrow down the fire to a certain floor, however I’m more interested in reading the smoke and thinking about the building layout and where the fire may be going. My first line may not be to the fire I see at a window.
The roof man opens a hatch and other openings when necessary to get the smoke and heat out. There is enough common sense and training that members know when to and when not to do that. When was the last time members or the public was burned in the stairwell as a result of a roof hatch being opened?
I don’t think New Yorks tactics leave a lot to be desired. If you do that is fine and you have a right to that opinion. However, a vast majority of departments in this country do not advocate putting a fan in the door prior to getting the fire knocked down. I have heard the positive pressure push since I started putting fires out in 1989. That’s 23 years ago and the fan is still one of the last pieces of equipment off the truck, and in all those years we’ve never hurt or killed any members of the public or the fire department as a result of it.
Lastly, It seems those who come in here and bash the tactics of well known and respected departments have little respect for the fire service and the brotherhood that is associated with it. Usually, they promote their way as being THE way and everyone elses way is wrong. That is not to say that we shouldn’t speak up when we see something in a video that makes you think WTF? however you immediately had to be sarcastic about busting on New York and then patting them on the back as you close up your follow up comments.
If the firefighters in New York are such excellent people, why would you say their tactics leave a lot to be desired? Define Excellence? Is doing the wrong thing over and over excellent? If such a large department is doing it so wrong, why hasn’t anyone stepped up and changed things, especially if it’s getting so many brothers killed in the stairwells?
There are few advantages with fire-to-hydrant lays, none of which apply to the first due engine. I don’t care what the guys from NY or Detroit ‘prefer’. I care about what gets water on the fire the fastest. Putting the engine in front and pulling a preconnected hose line does this.
It’s not always possible to locate the fire from the street, you’re right. It still needs to be ventilated. If you pick the ‘wrong’ window, you will still ventilate the building and save any victims from CO / Cyanide poisoning. You *may* intensify a fire — but for the fan give additional oxygen to the fire, there has to be both an in and an out. If there’s no path *through* the fire area, there’s no addition of O2 to the fire. So, you can vent the building without intensifying the fire – or at least without intensifying the fire any more than you would by opening a door and entering to search.
Firefighters and civilians burned in stairwells or above fires – situations where the fire got to pick it’s path and wasn’t forced to behave by forced ventilation: Baltimore County, MD. Cherry Road, DC. Pittsburg, PA. Berkely Way, San Fransisco. Possibly Black Sunday in FDNY. Definitely South Park Towers, NYC in 1998.
Are we going with popularity? Then put the engine in front and pull a preconnect. More and more departments are adopting PPA as their default tactic – with excellent results.
There are objective results here — I don’t care about hurting the feelings of those poor fragile egos in FDNY. I care about putting the fire out and saving lives. If one way is provably better than another, it is THE right way. PPV is tested in lab settings and proven at real world fires.
Excellence is 0 fire deaths per year, like Fairfax County, VA. 0 LODD per 25 years, like many departments. FDNY does the wrong thing over and over, experiences many deaths per year, and kills firefighters with frightening regularity. You ask why no one has stepped up and changed things? Most people fear change. Take a look at this thread.
Maybe a really good FD could do both forward and reverse lays of both hydrant lines and attack lines.
Time Event
0:00 FDNY engine at address
0:30 FDNY officer completes size up, calls for 6 lengths
1:30 FDNY control man finishes loading hose onto 2 FFs and himself (that is if they don’t have to wait for 2nd engine to complete stretch)
1:45 FDNY engine company enters lobby and begins climbing stair. FDNY Chauffeur drives to hydrant.
1:55 FDNY Chauffer stops at hydrant and checks hydrant.
2:10 Hydrant good, Chauffeur breaks line and makes connection.
2:30 FDNY Chauffeur can charge attack line, if they are ready for water.
0:00 Forward Lay engine arrives at hydrant. Hydrant man dismounts, pulls layout bag.
0:15 Forward Lay engine arrives on scene.
0:35 Forward Lay officer calls for the long line.
0:55 Forward lay crew has 2 shoulder loads in the lobby and is climbing. Forward lay MPO is flaking the drag section.
1:00 Forward lay MPO can charge line from tank water
1:10 Forward lay MPO has broken supply line and connected it to intake. Calls for water from hydrant or water supply company.
Forward lay is faster on the initial attack, every time.
Preconnects (and extensions) are faster on the initial attack, every time.
If all you guys know better why don’t you dive to NY and teach them ,your so smart and salty. It dose not matter that they have over 1 million runs a year and protect over 8 million people in only 468 square miles. That building is an old law tenement build around the turn of the century that has probably been renovated at least 1000 times before illegally with so many voids it whistles in a strong wind. Most likely 2 apt per floor (rear fire escapes only) with about 4-5 families living in each (not an exaggeration it is china town). Maybe missing a bulk head door, fire that have started in the stair well and extend in to the apartment and other factors. So your saying to the start a fan right away and blow air in to this building and push the fire all over the place. There are plenty of vids on line to show the greatness of the PPV and I am sure a few great stories from the burn centers around the US of how wonderful it is. Remember the number one most effective life saving tool is a PROPERLY POSITIONED HANDLINE.So just come down and tell them all the stories of the foundations you have saved.
I was at the fire. The roofman had to make a tough decision. It was, for the most part isolated building, he chose the stick b/c he was told he could not make the roof from exp 2, problem was that his experience told him that something wasn’t right during the climb. What you all don’t see is that the ladder was actually over the fire windows, not a good spot at all, being we don’t want to cross over fire. He knew is primary means of egress (the ladder) could be compromised. Chinatown, NY is infamous for it inhabitants calling 911 WAY late leading up to fire throughout. Also buildings in that area are notorious for MASSIVE alterations from the residents. Fire travel throughout that 100+ year old building is not uncommon. Old Law Tenements are notorious for fire travel through voids, which is the reason PPV would not only raze the building, but also KILL everyone in it, but I digress..back to the fire…the roofman MADE the roof through exp 2, he was about 3 mins behind the 2d due roof who was also a detail. Both men had to make one HELL OF A BALLSY jump from exp2 to the bulkhead of the fire building….my hats off to both of them….if they had missed…they would be dead.
The fire went out, no one got hurt thankfully. Nothing deters the roofman then falling…..I know the guy personally, a year ago he tried to crawl through fire to rescue a woman only to have the room flash on him…which resulted in him having to visit the Burn Center at Cornell….he’s small lad….but he has stones the size of planets….not to mention he is a US Marine and Combat Vet with 5 tours…..and he also lost a family member, who was also a fireman, at the WTC…..he comes from a good firefighting family….he’s no dummy or coward…and if you where stuck….you can guarantee he’d crawl through hell and bi*ch slap the Devil to get you out.