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UPDATED 5:45 PM:
At the time we posted the video above it was brought to our attention that the Paoli Fire Company had removed a press release from its website earlier today saying a much talked about image of one of its firefighters on live TV at yesterday’s Independence Day parade in Philadelphia was not an obscene gesture (you can read the initial press release here). Now the president and chief have issued a special statement saying that it was, in fact, an obscene gesture and the firefighter involved has been suspended. Here’s the statement:
EARLIER COVERAGE:
Okay folks. Here it is. You be the judge on this one. The Paoli Fire Company in Pennsylvania regrets that this was perceived as a firefighter flipping the bird to a live television camera during yesterday’s Independence Day parade in Philadelphia (read complete statement). On Facebook many have been very vocal that this was intentional. I will let the video speak for itself.
Note that the Paoli Fire Company has removed the earlier press release from its website.
Also on STATter911 …
- UPDATE: Paoli Fire Company says it was their finger, but not THE finger. – July 5, 2012
- This one speaks for itself (I think). Take a look. – July 5, 2012
- Berlin Fire Department tells its story. Posts details of claim defunding by town is control issue & not sexual harassment. – August 23, 2012
- Retired Philly Captain David Sweeney talks about his son. Firefighter Daniel Sweeney and Lt. Robert Neary remembered. Additional fireground audio. – April 10, 2012
Comments
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Just saw the video that was posted again. It is no doubt in my mind that he intentionally “flipped the bird” to the camera, it’s totally obvious. This person would be suspended in my department.
actually it was totally unintentional and how do i know this because he is my brother heard it straight from the horses mouth and he has no reason to lie to me.
Tell your brother he is a jackass and has disgraced not only himself and his Department, but the ENTIRE Fire Service.
I can honestly say that he was NOT giving the finger, Gore lost the election fair and square, that stain on the blue dress was wine, the Moon landing was faked, the Holacost is a lie and Christopher Columbus was the first to find America (besides the Native Americans)
Thanks for applying to the department,, we don’t need that type of fire fighter so good luck in the future leave your gear and pager at the chiefs door!!
Now that I’ve viewed it a few times, an even slowed it down to half speed, I can honestly say that he’s a dick-bag.
He would be fired on the spot. The department shouldnt try to cover up a bad apples gesture. Just admit he did wrong, fire the guy and move on.
How can any rational person say that his gesture was not intentional? Perhaps the brass at Paoli should review this video clip and reissue a more appropriate (and believable) statement.
Podraza – What exactly is the definition of a “Kid”. At what age did you start in the fire service? Is the “Kid” comment associated because he is a volunteer or could he still be a “Kid” if he was hired at 21 and in the Union? Just wondering some of these questions/answers.
I have met (39 years in service) some very mature 18 year olds who do an excellent job at fighting fires in a very professional and efficient way and I have met some 40 or so year olds that I wouldn’t give a dime for, both on the Volunteer and Career side.
This gesture was intentional, he looks young, it was inappropriate and no doubt will need to be disciplined. Is it disgraceful to the rest of the service, maybe in some minds yes but what are the chances, unless maybe your from the immediate area, that the next run you make the person is going to ask if you are associated with this individual or turn down your service because they now disrespect your willingness to respond.
Discipline him for his actions. Something that his department will have to take under consideration and do what they believe is best. He embarrassed them. Leave the “kid” stuff out, it has no relevance.
So sorry, your career is over. That was blatant and he needs to go. He is not worthy to represent and work with the people of his community
Bye Bye – that is the credibility of the Paoli fire department leaving the arena…. No doubt it was an intentional flying of the bird, and their efforts at a quick cover up will bite them big time… An example of how NOT to handle bad PR…
Paoli, doing what they do best-Parade Company,full of spoiled rich kids playing fireman
Put me down for deffinitely “flipping the bird”
OOPS!!! That don’t look good! Stupid kid! Time for boot to butt therapy!
Some young kid who doesn’t have a clue. Idiot
The fact of the matter is, the only person that knows for sure is the individual in the video. I think the video is much less definitive than the still shot. I would speculate that the media suspected the same thing which is why they went for the still instead of the video. In my opinion it is another instance of sensationalism and not news.
It’s amazing to me that much of the press and so many of our own are so quick to condemn our public servants and absolutely know beyond the shadow of a doubt that everyone on the news is guilty. Having been the subjects of news stories both good and bad, I can assure you that news reports, at least in. My area of the country, are rarely factual and accurate. It reminds me much of “professional wrestling”, a notion and concept of the truth, but not real.
Robert Kramer,
Where did you see the press saying anything about this? What are you basing this on facts or a bias toward the press? If you see the press has covered this up until now let me know, I have yet to find it (they may now). Read the following carefully which I posted on Facebook that explains how this transpired. To my knowledge the only involvement of the mainstream media was the live shot of the parade. Should we ban coverage of that too like they want to ban coverage of burning homes in Colorado?
Here’s what I wrote -
To the media haters on here writing how the news media as usual blows this out of proportion I hate to ruin your rant, but this wasn’t in the mainstream media at all. That I can see, no news organization ran the story. It was all over Facebook yesterday. It wasn’t the news media but people on Facebook who brought this to the public’s attention. To me it was an interesting look at how Facebook can impact a department’s reputation. I originally ran it on my site with the face and name of the department covered (even though it was all over the web) early this morning, more than 12 hours after it was on Facebook. The reason I did it that way is because this former member of the media wanted more than Facebook crowd sourcing as verification on which department was involved. Now that Paoli FC verified it, I ran the full picture with the department’s response. I am the closest thing to the news media involved in this story and I left the business two years ago. I am now just some schmuck with a blog trying to get to the bottom of something I saw on the web. Was the finger malicious or an accident? I haven’t a clue and won’t until I see the video with my own eyes. To me, it’s just a fascinating look at how news, or what it perceived as news, is transmitted in a digital environment. To the ones blaming the news media maybe you need to look in the mirror and see who is doing exactly what you are claiming, blowing something out of proportion. And BTW, I am not an apologist for the mainstream news media. I have blasted them many times when the facts show them wrong.
Statter
Dave,
If that is the case, I stand corrected. The fact that it was on the news at all led me to believe that was the basis of the media’s coverage.
To answer your question, no, I am not for limiting free press, but my bias is explained in my pos above. You never know how much misinformation there is in a news story until they report a story where you actually know the facts and see them all come out wrong. As stated above, it may not happen in your area of the Country, but it seems a fairly common occurrence around here. There have been numerous FD based stories that have been nothing but inaccuracies and sensationalism, not journalism. I do also understand that the info reported is only as good as the information they are given, but I thought checking the facts was part of responsible journalism.
First Robert, I appreciate you writing and being honest about your beliefs. I have no problem blasting the media when they are wrong. But I think it’s healthier for all of us not to rush to judgment about things like this and even more consequential events based just on a built bias. The Internet and social media make it so much easier to react first and consider the facts later.
I think this story was a good example of where we are with the media, or as my friend Gerald Baron likes to say, “a post media world”. This was a story driven by those in and connected to the fire service. It didn’t come from the traditional news media so many people say they despise. My guess is it may now become news in Philly. I am waiting to see if that happens.
The ills of the news media that everyone talks about, like sensationalism and bias, are nothing compared to where so many people get their news these days, social media. It’s a wonderful tool for information and provides an amazing amount of misinformation.
I can’t tell you how many times I have seen some of my FB friends go off cursing this president or the previous one based on what amounts to an urban legend that suddenly becomes fact because it is now in print on our computer screens. This country would be a lot better off it we took a deep breath and judged everything on its individual merit as opposed to a preconceived notion about an individual or a group.
I can learn from most anyone whether I agree from them or not. We should let facts guide our way and not emotion.
Please don’t look at this as an attack on you. It just gave me a chance to say what’s really on my mind about our culture in general.
Thanks for reading and writing.
Statter
Dave,
You are gonna have to try harder tha that if you want to hurt my feelings! Absolutely no offense was taken omy end, and glad that apparently none on yours either. In fact, I think we may have both been on the same page more than we realized.
As a journalist yourself that is highly supportive of the fire service, I have too much respect for you and enjoy your site too much to run off with my feelings hurt. Just offering my perspective, admittedly no generally I agreeance with the majority or management.
Thanks for good discussion!
I always learn more from the people I may disagree with on some points then those who think like me. Thanks Robert.
Wow! Typing on the iPad is causing mass typos
Dave,
You are gonna have to try harder than that if you want to hurt my feelings! Absolutely no offense was taken on my end. Glad that apparently none on yours either. In fact, I think we may have both been on the same page more than we realized.
As a journalist that is highly supportive of the fire service, I have too much respect for you and enjoy your site too much to run off with my feelings hurt. Just offering my perspective, admittedly not generally In agreeance with the majority or management.
Thanks for good discussion!
The next time Paoli Fire Co tries to “fill the boot”, you can guarantee more than one guy is gonna get the finger. Obviously that clown should get tossed, but after reading the press release, they’ll give him a pass.
Guilty! He can make all the excuses he wants, but beyond a reasonable doubt this jury of one peer has found him guilty.
It appears Paoli Fire Company has released a second statement regarding the “Finger on the Fourth” incident. Looks like someone with some PR skills finally took over the controls of the sinking ship.
Dave,
Paoli FD put a new statement on their webpage. I think they did a much better job this time around addressing the infraction and letting the community know measures are being taken to prevent this from happening again.
As for that individual… this video shows he clearly has a lack of respect for his community and the badge he represents.
Just updated.
Another disrespectful young punk…..more proof that the fire department is going down the tubes….There was alot more pride and respect when the older members could haze the young guys and before every one goes all PC on me think for a minute. When I was coming up if we got out of line the older members let you know one way or another. It started going down hill when kids wanted to treat the firehouse like a play ground and when they got slapped down for being little assholes then they went running to mommy who in turn called complaining to the chief. Now I know when I acted like a little asshole I would get a painful lesson, whether it was thump to the chest and so on…I learned not to be that pain in the ass and being from a fire family if I went home and complained the first thing I was told was “Well you shouldnt have been acting like a jackass”….this bunny petting bullsh@# is why these problems are becoming all too common place….Bring back tradition and bring back the ass whippings for these little jackoffs….
There you go, he owned up. Discipline is in order, but I don’t know that expulsion from the fire department is justice.
I think a review of the departments minimum requirements should also be reviewed. When you have 16-18 year old members, as this one appears, staffing fire equipment you have to expect that you are occasionally going to get actions that are less than desired. Not saying that makes it right, but realistic.
Well” Tenured Chief” I at least have the balls to use my real name. Kids means that KIDS. You put Immature KIDS in a parade and they get infront of a camera and act like KIDS. You want that image given to the public of what kind of firefighters you have protecting your town go right ahead. I too have been in the fire service for over 26 years both Volunteer and Professionally. When I was a volunteer captain and took the rigs to an OUT OF TOWN parade I had younger Firefighters they knew to be on thier best behavior. They even knew it in town parades. Your in uniform in your fire engine you represent your town, your duty and the whole fire service as a whole. I know my professional coworkers would never do anything like that. Its immature and rude. He may have thought it was funny at the time. I guess he can always work at your department Tenured chief.
“Stupid is as stupid does”..Forest Gump.
Leave your PPE at in the Chief’s Office and say good bye.
When will they ever learn…. It reflects on everyone.
Capt. 45-2 said it best
Capt 45-2 says
Thanks for applying to the department,, we don’t need that type of fire fighter so good luck in the future leave your gear and pager at the chiefs door!!
Strike Da Box! and see ya pretty boy! K
Unpopular perhaps, I agree with Tom. I am well past my teenage years, but I too will do someone stupid again one day. So will the rest of you.
There was a time that firefighters were about teaching the people under them, being a mentor. Did the kid mess up absolutely, and he should pay a price but do any of you think this is honestly something he would do again. Discipline the kid and let him learn from his mistakes.
A permanent expulsion from the fire department is not the answer in my book. Tear him down, but then build him up.
Its really not that big of a deal. So what he gave the camera guy the bird. ” Lack of respect for his community and the badge he represents”…Get a life! Im guessing 95% of the fire service does the job because its a cool job. For every guy that walks into the fire house and says ” Man I hope we run a fire today” is clearly not looking out for his community. Tell the kid he cant come to the firehouse for a week because he is suspended and then move on.
If only they would ve have isssued this statement to start they would have protected their credibility
I think part of the problem is that most Volunteer organizations are so hard up for help that young members get away with things that would not have been tolerated twenty five years ago. It’s a shame but it is a reflection of society in general. Everyone seems to be part of the no accountability it’s all about me generation these days. Be Safe Brothers!
I agree with your comment, ClownShow, about moving on, but the rest of your post I’m afraid I’m not so sure about. While you see that he gave the cameraman the bird, it really is a lack of respect for everyone involved.
I get the impression this is a young man who thought it was funny to flip the camera off, not having any idea what the ramifications might be. The problem is that right now in this nation, there are serious concerns about the professionalism of the fire service. There are chief officers like myself out there, trying hard to fight for funding of projects that really have an impact on community safety, only to be told that there are other priorities, or that our priorities don’t match.
It is imperative that we (that is everyone in the fire service) foster trust in the community and show the people who pay our bills that we are worthy of that trust. If we are so immature as to flip a cameraman the bird for the entire metro Philly area to see, including children and anyone else, then maybe we aren’t the people that should be trusted to protect the community.
You see this as an innocent flip of the finger. I don’t believe for a second that kicking this kid out is the answer, but I certainly would give him a few months to think about it. I would also look at the leadership of my organization and consider what we did to let him believe we would tolerate that kind of representation.
If that happened in my department, he would likely be looking for a job. But my department has incredibly high standards and some departments, not so much. But we understand fully when we put on the uniform or climb into one of our pieces, we represent a lot more than our individual selves- we represent our department, our community, and the fire service. If one of my people had that kind of attitude, I’d tell him he needs to go somewhere where they are okay with it, but we aren’t okay with it here.
As a young firefighter, I’m hoping he gets the mentoring he should have, learns from it, and becomes a productive member of the department.
thanks for giving the job a black eye you tool bag.
The Paoli FD is full of professional hard working men. This is an unfortunate act performed by one of their younger members. In an age where everyone has a camera on their phone, younger people have lost respect for TV cameras. They see a camera as a way to get on YouTube not national television. Chief Dutter and his crew will do the right thing.
Younger people have lost respect for more than just TV cameras. Someone earlier posted on how hazing has gone by the way-side. I loved being hazed (friendly of course), nowadays kids are spoiled & feel entitled. And this PC world we have created we cant “go back” to what used to work. Basically, spanking is looked down on.
Drama Queens!
He should be off the department until he goes back on TV camera and apologizes for his idiotic scumbag action.
IF he’s a man and wants to be part of this profession he better grow up pretty damn quick. My guess is he’s a pu$$y and it won’t happen
Judging by other pictures I have seen via social media it seems these days that amongst young people there are two reflexive actions when in the presence of a camera: either (A) flip the bird, or (B) make the “kissy lips” face(especially if it’s a young female) This tool bag may have not even realized what he was doing….not saying it’s right, mind you: he still needs a large foot applied vigorously to his backside.
It seems to be obvious that this young man has not learned the consequences of his actions. He simply “flipped the bird” to the camera. The reason why will open to speculation but,none the-less it was very inappropriate for the time and place.
After 27 years in the fire service, and having served as a volunteer(Penna), paid operator and professional firefighter I have retired. My retirement allows me time to think of past portions of my life and what I have learned. One of the most important lessons I have learned is that actions have consequences.
I have lost friends, tarnished long established friendships, and at times brought havoc into my life by simply not thinking before I spoke or acted. Luckily none of these less than stellar acts on my part affected my chosen calling, firefighting, a calling that I truly love.
This brings me to back to the subject at hand,an immature young man and his non-thinking action.
Did he learn a lesson? Was the shame of this “incident” sufficient? Does the individual feel any shame or remorse?
If the answer is no…then this young man should be asked to turn in his gear, not only for the good of the company, but for his good as well. This may be the first time that he realizes that actions, no matter how large or small, have a direct impact on his life.
I must say that I started this reply filled with righteous anger and indignation with the thought that he should be “drawn and quartered”,dismissed for cause and shunned by his fellow firefighters. Perhaps it is my age,65, that mellows me or perhaps I see a little of myself in this man child that tempers my quest for punishment.I do not know.
perhaps the best action to be taken would be to let the Chief decide what the punishment should be. If the young man is contrite about his actions and worthy of redemption, then eventually the fire service may gain an asset.Perhaps an explanation by senior company officers as to what a negative effect on the company and volunteer firefighters his action may have coupled with a public apology may suffice.
What ever the final result may be. I hope this young man learns one thing….no matter how small of large all actions have consequences
Dave on this issue did you ever get the full voice video of this incident. My system did not have sound so i could not be sure if there had been some other issue before the video was done just asking?
There was voice with it. That I recall the people anchoring the broadcast did not acknowledge the gesture.